43 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

http://planetf1.com/...i-Joins-Renault

[LarryKing]

"Mumbles" returns.

[Jim Drago]

I wonder if he has anything left?

[Tom Hampton]

You know, I have a hard time getting into F1. I watched most of the season this year, and to me it was mostly a yawn-fest. The only way to drum up drama was to ignore Red Bull and follow the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th order sub plots. The only question regarding P1 every race was really if Seb would get the lead on lap one or two. He essentially always drove away as soon as he got the lead.

I have a hard time with the absolute, crushing domination by a single driver. I can't really come to terms with a single driver who can outclass the entire field (including previous champions) by SECONDS per lap. More importantly, I can't enjoy watching a racing series like that. In motorsports, I really have sort of grown to expect a gradual fall off from P1 - Px, something like 1/2 tenth to a tenth per position. Something where the difference in positions is close enough to the noise that any variability gives Px+1 a chance to claim the spot. But, in most of the races Seb was over one second faster per lap (on every lap!). So much so, that he was able to negate the following car's one potential advantage (DRS).

I guess it will be interesting to see if Kimi can give Seb some REAL competition. That would go a long way towards making the season dramatic, and entertaining.

[LarryKing]

Tom, I think I have just the series for you - NASCAR.

[Tom Hampton]

Given the general use of "nascar" round these parts....I'm doubting that was intended as a particularly nice thing to say. But, yes like many (maybe most?) americans, I grew up on NASCAR and CART (okay, Daytona and Indy). But, I don't really understand your point? That F1 isn't supposed to be dramatic or entertaining? Or that wanting "close competition" for P1 is myopic? Only "dumb american motorsports" cater to the viewer? That statement could really be revised to "american sports", as every professional league has made "competition adjustments" in the last decade to attempt to mitigate dominance and sustain viewership/ratings. Some good, many bad.

My point wasn't centered around making rules changes, although there are lots of things I don't like from a pure driving point of view (DRS, KERS, traction control, automatic gear boxes...most drivers aids, really). But, rather that there doesn't seem to be the same level of effort from the other teams/drivers. Regardless of the rules package, I think we've all come to expect a sliding (generally linear) level of performance from P1 back. If these are all supposed to be the best of the best (cars, drivers, engineering teams, etc), in a "no holes barred", high innovation environment, I still have this notion that second place is almost as good as the guy in first and gives the guy in first a run for his money.

I have a hard time believing that Seb and Redbull are just, plain and simple, that much better than everyone else...and that everyone else is giving it the proverbial 110%.

But, I don't understand F1 enough to know WHY there is more variability than I expect. I have a few friends who grew up on F1 (mostly foreign nationals), and their opinion is that F1 isn't really the best-of-the-best. Its not a filtered class, that you can only get to by growing through the lower ranks until you're proven as a driver to be "one of the best" in the next lower tier (F3?). Ie, its possible and common for people to buy their way into F1. I don't know...I just started watching this year...and I'm puzzled by the apparent "lack of effort" by the teams in P2 - P10.

In every sport I've every participated in, or watched or any kind...there is almost always a close competition between each adjacent position. But, this level of dominance seems to be much more common in F1 than any other sport I can think of.

So, I guess I was thinking a response by someone my experienced with the sport might shed some light on why/how...rather than a "go watch nascar" and would be more interesting to discuss.

[LarryKing]

Road racing in general does not have 'close finishes'.

Huge disparity between what RB can spend and what HRT (for example) can spend. Kinda like Spec Miata. Nothing beats cubic dollars.

FWIW there was a bunch of promising drivers testing in F1 a couple weeks ago - next couple years could be interesting.

I predict Kimi will be the next Schumacher - now that wasn't intended to be particularly nice.

I have a hard time with the absolute, crushing domination by a single driver.

I been in races with "that guy". You know, the one that makes everyone else shake their head and say, how does he do it.

PS: Vettel really appears to be "that much better".

[Jim Drago]

Tom
I think the times were closer than you mention, especially in race trim. What Vettel does on the first few laps is incredible. If the others could get as much out of the car on laps 1-3, it would be interesting to see what happened with DRS. I'm not a Vettel fan, but you have to respect the ability and talent, he is certainly special.

As far as the other guys not trying... NASCAR rules are very tight, they want the cars as close as possible. F1 prides themselves as the number one goal of all the teams is the constructors championship, not the drivers championship. The drivers championship is more recognized by the fans, but within F1, the constructors title is king. The budgets are nearly unlimited, much of that can't be overcome. Red Bull cars have the other cars completely covered in mechanical grip, no power. Next year is completely a new year... all new cars, so we will see what shakes out.

F1 and NASCAR are very different, other than both are cars and both involve racing, just about everything else is different. I enjoyed this season in F1, I think the DRS and no fuel stops made the racing a lot more fun to watch. I also enjoy NASCAR, this season was the best I have seen. Just like watching Football and basketball for me I like both, both sports, but very different

[James York]

Tom,

I don't think you have idea behind F1 yet. Maybe watch for another year or so and give it a chance.

Since the engineering and development is so important in this series, it sometimes happens that a team makes a step advance from the competitiors.

[Jim Boemler]

F1 is a huge money sport. Ferarri keeps something like 600 full-time people on its team! There just aren't that many teams in the world who can afford to commit at that level, and even fewer with the talent available. I find it amazing they get as close as they do. I do think that a good SM race provides better "racing" entertainment. Now if we can get the SMs to go 200 MPH and rev to 18k, everything will be golden!

[dstevens]

Worst kept secret was that Kim Bob was coming back, the thinking was that it would be at Williams. I didn't read the P-F1 article but in the next couple of weeks there will be no more Renault. They had to keep that name under FIA rules in order to get the money from the previsou year. Renault has been an engine supplier only since they sold the team to Genii. They will become Lotus next year, Tony Fernandez' Team Lotus will become Caterham.

Tom, what you are seeing with Seb is history being made. A young, phenom, freak of nature driver that is able to wrangle every last thousandth out of a car designed by a man with engineering talent equal to his drivers talent. I'd say not bad for a drinks company.

BTW, great thread title.....

[Jim Drago]

Do miss his interviews..

[Tom Hampton]

Tom
I think the times were closer than you mention, especially in race trim. What Vettel does on the first few laps is incredible. If the others could get as much out of the car on laps 1-3, it would be interesting to see what happened with DRS. I'm not a Vettel fan, but you have to respect the ability and talent, he is certainly special.

You are probably right, in general. I was cherry picking from Monza and Singapore.

Both Monza and Singapore, once he took the lead (Monza...lap 4 or 5ish, singapore lap 1), he ended up with a 30 second lead after 30 laps. granted it was more than 1 second in the early laps and was plateauing at the 30 lap mark. And granted Button closed in in the waning laps at Singapore. But, even for road racing (with only the rare FCY), that's HUGE!

The thing that was interesting at Singapore was how much earlier Vettel was on the throttle vs everyone else coming out of the corner...even other top 10 drivers. Vettel was clearly WOT before apex, and everyone else was mid-throttle at apex and didn't reach WOT until near trackout.

Tom,

I don't think you have idea behind F1 yet. Maybe watch for another year or so and give it a chance.

Since the engineering and development is so important in this series, it sometimes happens that a team makes a step advance from the competitiors.

I agree, I don't. However, it seems unlikely that the TV coverage alone will give me that perspective. Hence I took the opportunity to ask WTFO, from those of you who have followed it for longer?

I'm sure I'll watch again next year. Just trying to get an appreciation of the magnitude of disparity. There does seem to be something different about F1 compared to other sports, because it has a history of producing this level of dominance every decade or so.

I'm not just talking about nascar or even motorsports. I can't really think of any other athlete (outside of F1) with this level of dominance---someone who one everything, everywhere, whenever and however they wanted. Eddie Mercx, Wayne Gretsky, maybe?

F1 is a huge money sport. Ferarri keeps something like 600 full-time people on its team! There just aren't that many teams in the world who can afford to commit at that level, and even fewer with the talent available. I find it amazing they get as close as they do.

Which makes it even more difficult to understand RB dominance...

[Richter Racing]

Good interview, I think I understood everything he said.

[Richter Racing]

I'm not just talking about nascar or even motorsports. I can't really think of any other athlete (outside of F1) with this level of dominance---someone who one everything, everywhere, whenever and however they wanted. Eddie Mercx, Wayne Gretsky, maybe?


Kelly Slater 11 time ASP Champion

[LarryKing]

Tiger Woods had a pretty good streak.

[James York]

Audi, LeMans

[dstevens]

Ricky Carmicheal

James "Bubba" Smith Stewart oppps

Valentino Rossi

Angelle Sampey

Jimmy Johnson

Buddy Baker

Wood Brothers

Ivan "Iron Man" Stewart

John Force

Don Garlits

Don Prudhomme

Frank Kimmel

Richie Evans

Robbie Gordon (Baja 1000)

Jute Kleinschmidt (Dakar)

Stephane Peterhansel (Dakar)

[LarryKing]

My favorite, Freddie Spencer. Absolutely dominant in his era.

[James York]

Penske, 1994.