43 replies to this topic

[jaje]

I tried searching on this site and specmiata.com but couldn't find what I was looking for as I have several questions about modifying the dashboard area of my car as I am prepping it for cage install then paint and then customize it with gauges. I don't want to do too much then have to go back in and reinstall a bunch of items. I have a 1994 if that helps.

Specifically (starting with the big items inside it, then from the passenger side moving to the drivers side):

- Big Metal Beam. There is a huge metal beam inside the dashboard that weighs a ton. I assume it must be kept but I would actually prefer something much safer such as a knee bar connecting the front part of the cage. I see no explanation of what is allowed unfortunately.

- Vents and Vent Tubing. Can we remove the little eye events in the car? Further, can we remove the tubing inside the dash that connects them? I know we must keep the blower motor and heater core and can install the a/c evaporator replacement tube (what came in non-a/c cars). I plan on using the normal vent holes to mount gauges so would have to cut the tubing to get wiring in there anyway. With them not there it makes it so much easier to route wires inside the dash to where those gauges are. I likely will keep the tubes that blow air into the defroster / defogger lock the heater core at that position and block off all other holes.

- The passenger side airbag. Can we remove it as I'd rather not have a highly pressurized canister sitting inside the car even though it will be disconnected? If we can remove it - what can we use to plug the hole in the dash? I've seen pics of the 90-93 cars that don't have a pass airbag.

- The glove box. Can it be removed or must be kept? The latch on mine is broken and I'd rather put a block off plate there or leave it removed for more leg room for possible passengers. Also can we remove the glove box light or must that remain as well?

- HVAC control panel. I plan on removing the hoses for the heater so won't need these anyway. I've seen in some '94-'97 models people deleted this as well in order to put in a big panel with gauges and switches. Is this required to be kept as I want to install my various switches (ECU, Fuel Pump, Fans, Fire, Blower Motor to turn on blower for the windshield)?

- Kick Panel. Can we remove the metal panel that goes right under the The metal under drivers side dash panel that covers the bottom of the steering column - can we remove that for us taller drivers giving us a little more room for the feet / legs - I'm 6'3" so would like some leg room.

- Wiper / Headlight switches / stalks I think need to be kept as every photo I see have them. Does the switch cover also have to be kept (it has a top / bottom that covers up the switch gear).

- Gauge panel & hood. My hood broke just by me looking at it. I want to install my own gauges instead of using the cluster. Can I do this - and what can I replace the hood with or do I have to buy another one and hope it doesn't break by touching it (lol)?

- Accessory Switches. These are for the side mirrors, cruise control, dimmer, cigarette lighter - must all these be kept? Kinda strange that we'd keep these as none would be used.

Sorry if I sound like I'm lost...I've repeated read the SM rules but the "if it's not specifically stated - you cannot do it" doesn't help much when I look at pics of built cars and talk to other who say you can do many things not listed there. I don't want to go too far then have to go back to fix things. I'm very new to SM coming from Spec-944 where we our rules were written a bit differently and much clearer about certain things when building a car. I also want to do a lot of the work myself so I'm proficient in fixing the car at the track if its needed (plus I'm also poor right now).

[juliancates]

Can't comment on everything, but for those I know for sure, answers are inline below:

I tried searching on this site and specmiata.com but couldn't find what I was looking for as I have several questions about modifying the dashboard area of my car as I am prepping it for cage install then paint and then customize it with gauges. I don't want to do too much then have to go back in and reinstall a bunch of items. I have a 1994 if that helps.

Specifically (starting with the big items inside it, then from the passenger side moving to the drivers side):

- Big Metal Beam. There is a huge metal beam inside the dashboard that weighs a ton. I assume it must be kept but I would actually prefer something much safer such as a knee bar connecting the front part of the cage. I see no explanation of what is allowed unfortunately.

- Vents and Vent Tubing. Can we remove the little eye events in the car? Further, can we remove the tubing inside the dash that connects them? I know we must keep the blower motor and heater core and can install the a/c evaporator replacement tube (what came in non-a/c cars). I plan on using the normal vent holes to mount gauges so would have to cut the tubing to get wiring in there anyway. With them not there it makes it so much easier to route wires inside the dash to where those gauges are. I likely will keep the tubes that blow air into the defroster / defogger lock the heater core at that position and block off all other holes.

- The passenger side airbag. Can we remove it as I'd rather not have a highly pressurized canister sitting inside the car even though it will be disconnected? If we can remove it - what can we use to plug the hole in the dash? I've seen pics of the 90-93 cars that don't have a pass airbag.

Check out the cover plate that SP Inductions makes: http://5xracing.com/...over-plate.html


- The glove box. Can it be removed or must be kept? The latch on mine is broken and I'd rather put a block off plate there or leave it removed for more leg room for possible passengers. Also can we remove the glove box light or must that remain as well?

- HVAC control panel. I plan on removing the hoses for the heater so won't need these anyway. I've seen in some '94-'97 models people deleted this as well in order to put in a big panel with gauges and switches. Is this required to be kept as I want to install my various switches (ECU, Fuel Pump, Fans, Fire, Blower Motor to turn on blower for the windshield)?

- Kick Panel. Can we remove the metal panel that goes right under the The metal under drivers side dash panel that covers the bottom of the steering column - can we remove that for us taller drivers giving us a little more room for the feet / legs - I'm 6'3" so would like some leg room.

- Wiper / Headlight switches / stalks I think need to be kept as every photo I see have them. Does the switch cover also have to be kept (it has a top / bottom that covers up the switch gear).

- Gauge panel & hood. My hood broke just by me looking at it. I want to install my own gauges instead of using the cluster. Can I do this - and what can I replace the hood with or do I have to buy another one and hope it doesn't break by touching it (lol)?

I think the hood has to stay, but according to the NASA rules:

Gauges may be added, replaced, or removed. They may be installed in the original

instrument(s) location using a mounting plate(s) or any other location using a secure method of

attachment.

- Accessory Switches. These are for the side mirrors, cruise control, dimmer, cigarette lighter - must all these be kept? Kinda strange that we'd keep these as none would be used.

Sorry if I sound like I'm lost...I've repeated read the SM rules but the "if it's not specifically stated - you cannot do it" doesn't help much when I look at pics of built cars and talk to other who say you can do many things not listed there. I don't want to go too far then have to go back to fix things. I'm very new to SM coming from Spec-944 where we our rules were written a bit differently and much clearer about certain things when building a car. I also want to do a lot of the work myself so I'm proficient in fixing the car at the track if its needed (plus I'm also poor right now).

[Keith Novak]

Interesting. I was typing up a "read the rules" post and looking at the GCR, it looks like a few things have dropped out. Still, reread the rules. You mentioned a few things that are explicitly called out like removing the air bag components is legal, and others that are not allowed at all like switches for ECU or fuel pump.

Quickly though:

Big metal beam can be removed to install a knee bar. Things removed or modified to install safety equipment are allowed.
Vents and vent tubing: Allowed if it's to install safety equipment or gauges. Mine are modified for my dash bar.
Airbag: Explicitly allowed.
Glove box: It's considered a cargo compartment and allowed
HVAC panel: Only if you're installing gauges.
Kick panel: Technically not legal but if someone bitches it's a weenie protest
Switch stalks: Nope
Gauge panel and hood: Legal. Removing gauges is legal. Hoods are prone to breaking if you're not careful but in doing something else be careful that you don't wind up doing something that makes big reflections in your windshield.
Accessory switches: Not legal. Doesn't matter if it's used or not. If you have electric mirrors, keep the switches.

Again, don't take this the wrong way. It just sounds like you're about to go screaming past the grey area straight into the illegal even if not performance enhancing arena.

[jaje]

Thanks guys as this helps a lot. I figure I'll ask the question and see if its allowed rather than assume I read it ok. I'm used to a different ruleset and don't have locals here that I know to help guide me (I'm starting a SM group in a brand new NASA region based in KC and don't know the SCCA SM guys). I did buy the Wheeler book but it is also vague about certain things (but very helpful with others). I do like being able to remove the steel bar in the dash so I can put in a proper knee bar. Last thing I want to do is go past the original intent of the rules.

[chris haldeman]

Most add a dash bar to the cage. I have never seen the factory dash bar removed mainly because it is all that holds the steering column. I would say leave the factory dashbar and add another to the cage. Be sure not to weld the factory dashbar to the cage. You will exceed the maximum attachment points and be non compliant

[Bench Racer]

I'm used to a different ruleset and don't have locals here that I know to help guide me (I'm starting a SM group in a brand new NASA region based in KC and don't know the SCCA SM guys).

Mnay people could post their answers to your questions. BUT, being that your starting a new nasa region group based in KC it would be best if a leader/you understood the rules from the nasa rule book. There are at minimum two nasa guru guys that post regullary on this site. John Mueller & Jim Birdsel (sp?). There are always SCCA & nasa rules arguing on this site & there are always several different answers to a given rule. Just as you want to get it right the first time I'm sure those you will lead don't need to be lead ah stray.

[davew]

This goes back to rule number 1. IF IT DOES NOT SAY YOU CAN, YOU CAN NOT. Just because some pic shows parts removed, does not mean it is legal. Plus some of these answers are just plane wrong. So here is your list:

Big heavy dash bar. Not very heavy actually. Looks heavy but is only about 7 pounds. Made from very thin tubing. This can not be removed as it is what holds your steering colume in place. May be modified for installing cage as needed.

Vents and duct work. You may remove as needed for installation of cage or gauges. I recomend having the defroster vents in place for rain races. A properly designed cage will allow for this.

Airbags may be removed along with their sensors. Wiring harnesses may not be modified. Technically it would be illegal to install an airbag plate. But that would be one of the weiniest protests ever. Many of us sell air bag covers that fit very nicely.

Glove box is allowed to be removed

HVAC controls may not be removed. You will need a way to turn on the defrosters when it rains.

I am assuming you are refering to the heavy metal kick panel directly below the steering colume. Technically not removable unless it interfers with roll cage dash/knee bar. Which you should have.

Wiper switches must stay to turn on the wipers (along with the defrosters) when it rains. No it is not legal to use a toggle switch.

Gauge hoods break very easy. Almost all new builds will get a new one. The sun beats down and makes the plastic brittle. They are not that expensive from Mazdaspeed. Gauge cluster may be removed for installation of aftermarket gauges.

I always reinstall the misc switches, just for looks. In total you may save 1/2 pound. I leave power mirrors working whenever possible.

I recomend to all newbies who ask these types of questions, to read and understand the rule book for their snctioning body (reading others may clarify a section that does not make sense). As the "go to guy" in a new region, you REALLY need to understand what the rules are. I would recomend that you find your local Pro Builder and go buy him lunch a couple times. And look at examples of what is right and what is wrong in the cars he has in his shop. You will learn more, faster than typing on a forum. Reading a bunch of well intentioned, but all too wrong info.

Dave

[Keith Novak]

I didn't answer on whether it was a good idea, just whether it was legal. The rules do state that no other modifications other than those spelled out are allowed EXCEPT for the installation of gauges and required safety gear. For example, it doesn't say you can modify your transmission tunnel, but it's done to install the seat which is required safety gear making it legal.

I wasn't thinking about the steering column attachment so I'll give you that. Removing the heater controls, while I agree it's not a good idea would be legal to install gauges. The wiring harness may not be modified, but when it says that you can remove a system that tells me plug and play attachments to the wire harness specifically for that system may be removed. Window motor wires can be unplugged and fall into that category in my view as it says the window operating mechanism may be removed.

[davew]

Someplace in the 600 pages of the SCCA GCR, it says you can not use a "tortured" interpritation of the rules. Best over the top version of this I ever heard, and yes the guy was serious.

It says I can use any brake pads, so I want to use these aftermarket pads that do not fit my oem calipers, so I must use bigger calipers, that do not fit my rotors, so I need giant rotors that will not fit inside my wheels. So I need bigger wheels that won't fit under my fenders. So my fiberglass fenders are legal. Right??????

It has already been determined that if your roll cage interfers with the seat belt towers, you can not remove the towers. Same logic would apply to the steering colume bar, vents, HVAC controls...

Someplace else in the 600 pages it says an allowable modification can not perform a prohibited function. Again going to the SM way back machine. Any radiator may be used, but it may not create an additional opening, allowing fresh, RAM air into the intake.

Actually it does say the floor pan and tunnel may be modified for seat installation. We passed that specificly several years ago.

I know Meathead could site chapter and verse on these items, I just know they are there.

Dave

[Mike Collins]

Dave is correct. Basically here is what you need to know:

You can modify your dash for the installation of REQUIRED safety equipement. You can notch or slot the dash for a properly fitting cage. You may not mangle the dash and use your roll cage as an excuse. You would be wise to leave the dash bar in place and utilize all of the stock dash mounting hardware. Mazda was smart enoough to make it a structural piece, leave it alone!

You can replace and or install any instrumentation you need. Once again you may not mangle anything to do this. You can remove and replace the instument cluster. You can remove the radio and replace it with a face plate with additional gauges. I along with others install gauges in the dash eyeball vents. I think you could make a case that was illegal but not sure it would hold up.

You can section but not lower the floor pan. The pan can be sectioned to install a seat, no other reason.

[Keith Novak]

You’re doing the same thing you say not to do. You’re looking at what you understand the intent is, not what the rules actually say. Sure, it’s possible to butcher the rules to meet the wording. From there it can be a gray area. I’ve only been in this sport for a couple years and have seen constant changes to clarify everything from exhaust dimensions to undercoating. Some are borderline enough that it can’t be said they violate the rules, but the rules will quickly be changed to spell it out for the future.

It doesn’t seem like a tortured interpretation to say the heater control area is equivalent to the eyeball vents for a gauge mounting location, or removing a local area of your headliner to install the main hoop is no different than putting a notch in the dash. Modifying the tunnel might have been in the rules several years ago, but I think if you go back and look at the GCR 2 years ago, it was not mentioned and it was still common practice at the time. It was somewhat hotly debated on the old site for that reason. Maybe it got lost in the shuffle like cruise control that was apparently legal years ago but had to be added back into the rules recently. Everyone knew it was legal but was just forgotten at some point. The metal plate that covers the fuel filler hose? Also added recently although virtually nobody had them installed. Technically not legal, but if you ignore the GCR and know that it was always supposed to be legal it’s ok?

Maybe the ground rule should be, “If it doesn’t say you can, than you can’t…unless you know it’s supposed to mean you can, in which case it’s fine.”

[davew]

Having spent 5 years on the SMAC, 4 as Chairman, I litterally wrote a lot of these rules.

I actually would consider removing the HVAC controls as a tortured interpritation. You have a perfectly legitimate place to install your ALLOWED additional gauges in the radio hole. Which is litterelly touching the HVAC control. Again, an allowed modification may not perform an unallowed modification. You are allowed to remove the radio and put in gauges. You are not allowed to remove the HVAX controls to install your gauges. And yes, using the eyeball vents may be illegal.

Reguarding floor pan mods for wide seats, this was being done since day 1. It was considered legal by virtually everyone. Someone got on their high horse and made a stink. The SMAC came back and clarified what was already considered a legal mod. Similar to undercoating this month.

The cruise control was an error/ommision that got dropped out of the GCR for a couple years. Once someone noticed the ommision, the error was corrected.

The exhaust dimension wording was changed due to a competitor finding a loophole in an ambigous rule. His interpritation met the written rule. But not the intended rule. I congratulate him on his inginuity. But we changed the wording the next week. As any good rules making committee should.

Twisting the rules around to get where you want to be, may work once. But smart people write the rules and may come back to bite you later.

Dave
Retired SMAC

[Ron Alan]

Keith, When your not working on the next B1 bomber, do you part time as a defense lawyer?

Mike...what is "section" vs lower on the pan?

[FTodaro]

Dave maybe we should lobby to add the language to allow gauges to be installed in the center heater vents since a good many of us have done it, and it sure is not a competitive advantage. But that way you can maintain the statement that if it does not say you can you can't.

[Keith Novak]

Dave,
I totally hear you, and appreciate that you know exactly what the rules are supposed to mean having written them. I'm a stickler in some cases since writing and interpreting rules is a big part of my profession. We get wrapped around the axle with different or changing interpretations of rules constantly. I don't expect the valued members of the SMAC to be lawyers either.

In this case what the rules do say is that installing safety equipment and gauges is the only allowed exception to interior modifications other than those spelled out. It also says gauges may be located anywhere so long as they're securely attached. That may not be what it's supposed to mean, but it is definitely what it says. By the same token that if it doesn't say that you can, you cant...if it says you can, then you can. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to begin with and if you decide to exploit a rules legal loophole, it might not be rules legal in the next Fastrack.

If I was going to make a suggestion to clarify it, I'd prohibit removing the heater controls. Then any location still allows eyeball vents, pillar mounted or a bolt on bracket somewhere. I'm not even recommending it. I recommend having a functional blower as opposed to the people I know who've used a stick with a rag on in to clear the condensation off the windshield in a downpour.

(Ron: )
Cheers,
Keith

[George Munson]

I asked this question and didn't really get a clear answer. On a 1.6 or early 1.8 car could we lower the HVAC Control Panel in order to install gauges? I don't want to remove it. Just lower it. For those of us who's seat are way forward looking below the current HVAC Panel to see other gauges is tough. Thanks for your time and answers.

George Munson

[Keith Novak]

It would appear that although the rules say you can put gauges anywhere, you're not supposed to touch the HVAC controls to actually put them there specifically so while it might say you can now, it very well may not next week. Sorry for muddying the waters for you and welcome to Spec Miata.

[Mike Collins]

You can section the floor pan where it meets the tranmission tunnel. You may not remove the pan from the door-sil or rear firewall. The area for the placement of the seat is not square. IN THE OLD DAYS we used a BFH to reshape the metal in the tunnel to accomodate us larger drivers! Now we use a wedge piece of metal and weld it in. This really only applies to the LARGER drivers who race SM and want to sit on the floor and against the rear wall for maximum room.

[Jim Drago]

At some point we have to stop and think how thick do we really want the rule book? I leave all my AC/fan panels in place. I an sure the switches on those panels ave been used for "other functions" by some in the past I have no issue personally with them being removed, but I think it is a stretch now as well, although a weeny protest. If someone wants them specifically legal to remove, send in a letter and let the SMAC and put the SMAC to a decision. This specifically allows gauges in the eyeball vents IMO. ( that coupled that most have a dash bar and were forced to remove all the vent tubes leading to those vents to fit the bar, so your filling an already dead hole)


c. Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced, or removed.
They may be installed in the original instrument(s) location
using a mounting plate(s), or any other location using a secure
method of attachment. Other than modifications made to
mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the
remainder of the dash “board” or panel shall remain intact.





The tunnel modification is needed on almost any composite seat, especially those with halos, along with anyone thinking about seat tracks mounted to the floor.
Here is the rule allowing it:


8. Driver/Passenger Compartment - Trunk
a. The driver’s seat shall be replaced with a one-piece bucket-type
race seat. All seat mountings shall be reinforced. Factory seat
tracks/brackets may be modified, reinforced, and/or removed
to facilitate replacement mountings provided they perform
no other function. The passenger seat must be removed.
The transmission tunnel may be modified for the purpose of
installing a competition driver seat. The floor pan must remain
in its original position


This is what we made to modify the tunnel, if there is an interest, there has been some interest, so we will likely start selling them, here is a prototype. The finished version is nicer without the weld showing in the front. It is cut a hole and drop this in and weld. This gives you about 3 inches on the floor and allows you to properly center your seat.

[Bench Racer]

I know I'm the minority but I'll ask the question anyway. Why would anyone want to install gauges (that the driver wants to read while racing) in the area of the HVAC adjusters or below the adjusters where the radio once lived. If people put the gauges in a useful place (where the gauges may be read while racing) we would not have all this banter about the HVAC adjuster re-position/changing rules.