51 replies to this topic

[Jamz14]

Hey Guys,

If the rules don't allow mods to the head, and you have to use OEM parts, what makes a race prepped head better than a standard stock head?

Not looking for someones super special secrets, but a general conversation on why I should spend $1500 for someones special head as opposed to taking my stock head to a good automotive machinist.

Thanks

[LarryKing]

Today's phrase is "tech shed legal". If it can't be proven illegal then it's legal. Get use to it as you'll hear the phrase used to justify all sorts of shenanigans.

I highly recommend employing someone who specializes in SM heads, rather than any "good automotive machinist". A dedicated SM engine builder knows "tech shed legal".

In closing, are you familiar with the phrase "don't bring a knife to a gun fight"?

[Glenn]

Today's phrase is "tech shed legal". If it can't be proven illegal then it's legal. Get use to it as you'll hear the phrase used to justify all sorts of shenanigans.

I highly recommend employing someone who specializes in SM heads, rather than any "good automotive machinist".

In closing, are you familiar with the phrase "don't bring a knife to a gun fight"?

+1000000

[MPR22]

It is my understanding that the $1,500.00 will get you super special secrets + new valves, seals, maybe springs if needed....... other replacable parts. If you are using a crate head, I would assume the price would be lower, since you are just paying for the special secrets/machine work.

[Jamz14]

No thanks, I have no interest in trying to skirt the spirit of the GCR's. I have interest in building a good driver that is capable of advancing to even higher levels of motorsports. So if the answer is that good race heads can't be found to be out of compliance, I have no interest. If the answer was that a good race head had more attention to legal detail, then I'm interested.

And then when a great driver with a knife is able to hold his own with drivers with a .45 , I'll be proud. You guys take the trophies, we will trake the experience.

[Charlie Hayes]

This is going down hill fast. Your in SoCal, talk with Luis@Rush Motorsports...

Sorry to let you know, but building a car to the max limit of the rules is the only way to win in this class. Driving counts big time but so does car prep! A few hp shows...

[Matthew Wolfe]

And then when a great driver with a knife is able to hold his own with drivers with a .45 , I'll be proud. You guys take the trophies, we will trake the experience.

Couldn’t of said it better myself, other than I am still planning on taking my fair share of trophies.

[Chris Adams]

The unfortunate truth is that there is an unfair advantage in every level/form of motorsports with any sort of rulebook, Jamz. The best you can do is to put your best foot forward whether that's with a crate, built, or junkyard part and remember, as you have said, experience speaks louder than money.

With that being said, a wise friend of mine has always quoted, "If you are going to race, you should go first class."

If it's worth doing, its worth doing well and doing right.

[HoneyBadger - BrianW]

Sorry to let you know, but building a car to the max limit of the rules is the only way to win in this class. Driving counts big time but so does car prep! A few hp shows...

+1

A bad driver is bad in any car. An excellent driver can win in an excellent car. An excellent driver can be competitive but likely wont win in a car that is not built to the max or near max of the rules. That is the reality...

[LarryKing]

Someone alert Diogenes.

[Charlie Hayes]

Give Bob Thorton a call at Race Engineering (704) 202-5551 he can help you get a great engine program started. With it being 100% legal no ifs and or buts.

[Chris Adams]

Someone alert Diogenes.

Had to google that one...

[LarryKing]

advancing to even higher levels of motorsports

Unfortunately exploiting "gray areas'" advances at higher levels too.

[Jim Drago]

No thanks, I have no interest in trying to skirt the spirit of the GCR's. I have interest in building a good driver that is capable of advancing to even higher levels of motorsports. So if the answer is that good race heads can't be found to be out of compliance, I have no interest. If the answer was that a good race head had more attention to legal detail, then I'm interested.

And then when a great driver with a knife is able to hold his own with drivers with a .45 , I'll be proud. You guys take the trophies, we will trake the experience.

Don't believe everything you read...
The head rules are spelled out very clearly. Most everything can be measured at this point. I don't think there is near the "skirting" of rules etc that many claim. Get a head from a reputable person who knows the rules, has the appropriate tooling etc. In my experience, most non SM machine shops don't do the work at the level required to make power in SM. While no special tooling is required, it sure helps to do a better job. Many use a torque plate on the head when doing the valve job to insure a proper valve seal when the head is torqued, have tools made for the various relief cuts and plunge cuts etc.

If you are close to Rush, they will do you a good job, as will many other reputable SM vendors..


As far as developing your skills etc, but what has been said above is the truth., 2-3 HP shows up. I would be suprised if you got that close with a non SM machine shop doing your head on the first try, we didn't.

Jim

[Jamz14]

Drago,

Thanks, sound advice.

Others, I said that I have no interest in skirting the spirit of the rules. I didn't say that I won't take advantage of the rules where I can. But the rules are clear when it comes to the heads ( Moose, I see no Gray area here). Expertise with machining heads within the rules, no problem. Doing something that can't be validated but goes against the GCRs, I'll let everyone degrade the topic with opinions on that. I've seen all the comments before coming up through the karting ranks and I will not get into the philosophy of GCR's.

I absolutely know and expect that skirting the rules doesn't stop as you progress in classes. We come from the pro kart ranks and there were guys there that spend more money in karting than the top guys here in SM, just to get their kid that trophy. So I am not delusional about what is going on. But again, no interest in that at this level. We use SM for great, low cost seat time to keep a driver crisp and sharp.

I will digress with one comment though; Chris, since when is violating the spirit of the GCR's going first class? I understand your comment and believe in what I think you mean 100%. But I don't considering cheating as going first class. Now everyone can begin the same old arguements I've seen here and on other forums about what cheating is.

Please know that I am new here and I don't wish to offend good people here. Just that I have seen this before and don't want to do it again.

[Qik Nip]

Hey Guys,

If the rules don't allow mods to the head, and you have to use OEM parts, what makes a race prepped head better than a standard stock head?

Not looking for someones super special secrets, but a general conversation on why I should spend $1500 for someones special head as opposed to taking my stock head to a good automotive machinist.

Thanks

Jamz:
It seems to be generally accepted that an old (origional) 1.6 head is a better candidate for making the best tech shed performer versus a new crate motor head. Apparently some of the very early heads are the best candidates for techno reasons that builders like Jim Drago, Bob Thornton or my engine guy (plug, plug) Jim Stewart can explain.
Rick

[LarryKing]

(Moose, I see no Gray area here).

Upon review I see no good reason for Jamz14 to purchase a pro head. Congratulations, you just saved $1,500!

violating the spirit

That spirit gave up the ghost many years ago. (FWIW, I don't like it either)

[Chris Adams]

...Chris, since when is violating the spirit of the GCR's going first class? I understand your comment and believe in what I think you mean 100%. But I don't considering cheating as going first class...

That was not the thought I was attempting to convey, although I see how it sounded and I could have worded it better. I certaintly do not condone cheating, or manipulating the rules, or whatever you want to call it.

I simply mean that sometimes spending money (going first calss) is necessary. I spend money on first-class tires, alignments, and safety equipment because I beleive they are the most important items to ME. And in this case, some feel it is in their best interests to go with a first class head. The numbers are there, on the dyno, and prove you pay for what you get.

[Jim Drago]

So tired of the spirit left the class, the class stinks now etc. The class is different now, no doubt, but if anything it is better than ever, not worse. The problem is that just like me, and many other guys when they come into SM , they see what they want to see, not what is really gong on. I had no clue what it took to be competitive in SM when I started, most don't. I really don't think there ever was a day that a $6000.00 car could win a competitive SM race. Pro engines were here day one, people were outspending and out prepping day one. But I admit, I didn't see the class that way when I started either, but not because it wasn't there, I think I was just a little naive. The rules are tighter and more enforceable now than ever before. Has the price of poker gone up? sure it has... But that is due to the success of the class and the tight competition, not a bunch of people exploiting the rules etc. Well at least that is my opinion after coming home from a Sebring race of 62 cars and 40 at Homestead. All versions of the cars running at the front from many different builders etc. I have been to every one of the Sebring races since SM went National in 2006, these two races were the largest I can ever remember. It's not all doom and gloom. Each time we give newcomers that impression it turns people off to the most affordable and best amateur racing available anywhere.
Jim

[john mueller]

Not looking for someones super special secrets, but a general conversation on why I should spend $1500 for someones special head as opposed to taking my stock head to a good automotive machinist.

IMO: Dropping $1500 is a cheap for the longevity and legal power a reputable SM shop can provide. I've used a Meathead 1.6 head for the past 6-seasons, getting it refreshed every two (just had a new one built, current one will become my track-side spare). Ya gotta love the 100% legal power that you wont ever get with a donor or a crate.

A bad driver is bad in any car. An excellent driver can win in an excellent car. An excellent driver can be competitive but likely wont win in a car that is not built to the max or near max of the rules. That is the reality...

Yes, there is no substitution for seat-time and skill behind the wheel. BUT I've seen tons and tons of data that supports what Brian said above ^^^... A good driver will podium & sometimes even get a regional race win on power alone. While the excellent driver with a 'fully built & prepped' car will have better results every time (wrecks & DQ's withstanding ).