51 replies to this topic

[Jamz14]

Thanks Moose!

[Jamz14]

FYI, not trying to save $1500 . Trying to validate the need to spend it and what you get for it. I think I have a clear picture now.

[FTodaro]

So tired of the spirit left the class, the class stinks now etc.

Give it up Jim, People have to complain about something, its still the pre season for many of us.

Getting a "pro Head" to me means getting the head back to optimum performance. When one or two hp count in a class, were the rules are aimed at making the cars equal, putting an effort into a few HP makes a difference.
When you have the head done you are getting a regrind on the seat, new fresh springs, vs the head with 90,000 miles on it. So Yes there are some Black ops going on but I think a bigger part of the advantage is a head that is right up to snuff.

[LarryKing]

Best, most competitive amateur racing - agreed.

Affordable - a relative term. (says the moose working two jobs to have tire money)

Entry level - a used $3000 ITB car is entry level.

[Jamz14]

Moose,

Yes affordable, and yes it is relative. Relative to racing, not to an average american income. When it cost $3500 for a single cylinder karting engine,and I can get a 4 cylinder crate Mazda engine for 2K, I call that affordable. When an exhaust for karting cost $399.00 and I can get an exhaust for SM for .......what was it, two something? The list goes on. And if I really want to be competitive in karting, I will use the super soft chassis good for half season at best,and they go for about 4 grand...... I'd say that this class is relatively affordable, yes?

[Jim Drago]

Best, most competitive amateur racing - agreed.

Affordable - a relative term. (says the moose working two jobs to have tire money)

Entry level - a used $3000 ITB car is entry level.

I hate spending money as much as the next guy... Agreed affordable is a relative term.

I don't think ITB compares well to SM, generally speaking smaller fields, less competition and far more diverse group of cars making the racing a little harder or easier depending on what car you are in. I don't think your winning a competitive race in a $3000 ITB car anymore than you are in a $5000 SM . I'm sure when you peel the ITB onion as deep as your peeling the Sm onion, your eyes will water there as well

[Glenn]

I hate spending money as much as the next guy... Agreed affordable is a relative term.

I don't think ITB compares well to SM, generally speaking smaller fields, less competition and far more diverse group of cars making the racing a little harder or easier depending on what car you are in. I don't think your winning a competitive race in a $3000 ITB car anymore than you are in a $5000 SM . I'm sure when you peel the ITB onion as deep as your peeling the Sm onion, your eyes will water there as well

NOOOO say it aint so.....the IT guys NEVER violate the "spirit of the rules", or the Showroom Stock guys either

[LarryKing]

So what are we talking about here?

Buy a pro head - buy dozen. Go to your local machine shop GCR in hand. All the specs are right there. Any good machinist should be able to crank one out because all the tricks are now public.

[Qik Nip]

Pro engines were here day one, people were outspending and out prepping day one. But I admit, I didn't see the class that way when I started either, but not because it wasn't there, I think I was just a little naive. The rules are tighter and more enforceable now than ever before.

At the risk of sounding like a suck up, the Boss is right. SM racing is more on the up and up than ever. When I began in the class in late 2003, the cars were far less prepped, but the degree of "sliperyness" among those who were inclined to cut corners was pretty significant (i.e missing restrictor plates, light wheels, "stock cams" that met lift specs (but not duration) and headers that looked like stock manifolds until you calipered them!. Yep, I'll take the good new SM days!
Rick

[Glenn]

At the risk of sounding like a suck up, the Boss is right. SM racing is more on the up and up than ever. When I began in the class in late 2003, the cars were far less prepped, but the degree of "sliperyness" among those who were inclined to cut corners was pretty significant (i.e missing restrictor plates, light wheels, "stock cams" that met lift specs (but not duration) and headers that looked like stock manifolds until you calipered them!. Yep, I'll take the good new SM days!
Rick

Thats just the short list

[Jim Drago]

So what are we talking about here?

Buy a pro head - buy dozen. Go to your local machine shop GCR in hand. All the specs are right there. Any good machinist should be able to crank one out because all the tricks are now public.

The specs are right there... Any good machinist should be able to get what any PRO Shop can. I truly believe that is accurate, but do 100 heads and I would bet that #100 is significantly better than head 1-5. Max is not always the best answer to the question.

[Jamz14]

Moose,

Here is what I am talking about;

Take the head heighth spec. If buying a stock head,and the head is 5.25"(I don't know what they really are). But a competition head is milled to 5.245000, and this by nature increases the compression ( still within spec ), then I understand. This is all within the GCRs ( including the spirit of the GCRs ), and tells me that the tolerances that a pro machine shop use are tighter than just a regular machine shop. This I understand and I am willing to pay for this level of precision.

But if you tell me that a pro SM head builder understands what is tested,and what can't be tested, and uses this knowledge to build a head that violates stock dimensions just because it can't be measured,then I am out. I have no interest in complaining about a shop that does that or competitors that seek that out. Just saying that this isn't for me or my driver. We are in it for something different and we will gladly race midpack and enjoy ourselves while you guys duke it out at the front.

The reason for this attitude is because even flying inside the spirit of the GCRs, you can with money buy advantages. I've seen it in karting and know that it goes on here. In karting we had some kids parents buy 10 sealed motors,just to build two motors that were on the best side of the spec tolerances, and then have the motors sealed. All legal and I have no complaints. However I do not have a 50K budget just to get a great motor. So I have no interest in flying in the "gray areas" of the rules as I still can't out spend the guys that will do anything for that championship.

[Glenn]

Moose,

Here is what I am talking about;

Take the head heighth spec. If buying a stock head,and the head is 5.25"(I don't know what they really are). But a competition head is milled to 5.245000, and this by nature increases the compression ( still within spec ), then I understand. This is all within the GCRs ( including the spirit of the GCRs ), and tells me that the tolerances that a pro machine shop use are tighter than just a regular machine shop. This I understand and I am willing to pay for this level of precision.

But if you tell me that a pro SM head builder understands what is tested,and what can't be tested, and uses this knowledge to build a head that violates stock dimensions just because it can't be measured,then I am out. I have no interest in complaining about a shop that does that or competitors that seek that out. Just saying that this isn't for me or my driver. We are in it for something different and we will gladly race midpack and enjoy ourselves while you guys duke it out at the front.

The reason for this attitude is because even flying inside the spirit of the GCRs, you can with money buy advantages. I've seen it in karting and know that it goes on here. In karting we had some kids parents buy 10 sealed motors,just to build two motors that were on the best side of the spec tolerances, and then have the motors sealed. All legal and I have no complaints. However I do not have a 50K budget just to get a great motor. So I have no interest in flying in the "gray areas" of the rules as I still can't out spend the guys that will do anything for that championship.

The ONLY way you are ever going to be able to be sure is to do BOTH and dyno the results. If you get a head from one of the aforementioned vendors you at least have the assurance they have built more than 1, and they are already tooled up to do the work. Try getting that kind of service from Billy Bobs Diner and Racin car shop:)

[dstevens]

Moose,

Yes affordable, and yes it is relative. Relative to racing, not to an average american income. When it cost $3500 for a single cylinder karting engine,and I can get a 4 cylinder crate Mazda engine for 2K, I call that affordable. When an exhaust for karting cost $399.00 and I can get an exhaust for SM for .......what was it, two something? The list goes on. And if I really want to be competitive in karting, I will use the super soft chassis good for half season at best,and they go for about 4 grand...... I'd say that this class is relatively affordable, yes?

The chances of your kid getting a car ride from a few good SKUSA or WKA seasons are better than from SM. If you are going open wheel Star Mazda is a better route than club racing. However, the real money for a racer in the US is circle track, or even drags. Were I to take a kid up through club racing I'd do it with B spec then GTA, not SM. SM is a great class, but it's for middle aged men with more money than sense. (looks in mirror...) It's not a dev class for a kid that wants to climb the ladder.

I'd wager most of the guys doing so called "pro" heads don't own the mill or have someone on staff to operate it to cut those heads. Any good race shop, and the key is race shop, can make those cuts. They are well defined in the rules. Even the big boys of SM engine building make mistakes. There was an out of compliance cut head bounced at the Run Offs this year in SM.

I ran shifters for about 10 years. Running SM nationally is going to cost you more than running a national karting program. If you aren't going to push the gray in the rules, your kid won't be up front and won't get a paying ride. That's the reality of racing at any level. Think Stewart or Vettel won championships last season based on spirit and intent? If you aren't going to push the limits, save your money and send the kid to a good college.

[LarryKing]

Jamz 14,

I don't know any more than you. I've raced SM for 10 years and still i'm not privy to the 'in the know crowd'. The "Boss" says it doesn't happen (any more) so I guess we'll just have to take his word.

For the record - I'm not a front runner, I race regional only, and my budget allows a couple sets of tires and entry fees for a half dozen events per year.

I do believe you can have a ball o' fun on a budget, and I also believe that if you want to compete on a national level you will be racing against people you can and do spend 6-figures per year on amateur racing.

Bullwinkle

PS: my brother's kid raced quarter midgets for years and I've watched bro drop $4000 on souped-up lawnmower engines without batting an eye.

Billy Bobs Diner and Racin car shop

Try the BBQ - it's awesome!

[MPR22]

The specs are right there... Any good machinist should be able to get what any PRO Shop can. I truly believe that is accurate, but do 100 heads and I would bet that #100 is significantly better than head 1-5. Max is not always the best answer to the question.

That is what the flow benches tell you.

@ Jamz14
A good machinist does not have a 1.6L torque plate laying around, but the SM builder sure does. Those babies, the cutters, flow bench.... are all pretty pricey? If you are doing only one head I sure would let the SM guru do the work. They have the flow benches and have done all the hard work, ie figuring out what to take out where and the they have the right tools to do the job to get the last 2-3 HP out.

[tLinder]

To me it's simple, Race Head = more power. IMO no need to spend the extra $$$ until you know and you can tell you're being beat by a "Race Head". (I'm not there yet and kinda of hope I don't get that good)

[Jamz14]

Ah, now these are good reasons to pay the money and that is what I was looking for.

DStevens, I agree with your ladder thoughts. We do both. We run open wheel cars to climb the Star Mazda ladder to Indy (and hopefully British Formula Ford). But the kid also like sports cars. In my opinion, low HP classes teach great driving skills. That is why we run SM, that and the price for seat time. Our big problem is just seat time. Want to guess what open wheel seat time costs??!!!

Circle tracks and drags are out. No desire from the boy, without desire, no career. A bit of disagreement on lack of Dev ladder in SM. SM and MX5 cup does have a Mazda ladder in place. Again, this is for seat time and not being looked at as a driver ladder class. And yes I know that there is a ton of difference between open wheel cars and sports cars. But both build feel, and that is what we need.

[dstevens]

Circle tracks and drags are out. No desire from the boy, without desire, no career. A bit of disagreement on lack of Dev ladder in SM. SM and MX5 cup does have a Mazda ladder in place.

Name 5 guys that in the last five years have full time rides in the top level of motorsport that aren't self or family funded that came from SM or Playboy Cup...

[Jamz14]

Dstevens,

Oh, and Vettel and the other F1 drivers have their rides because of money, not becuase of them pushing gray areas. That is the mechanics department,not the driver at that level. Maldanado, Perez, maybe Rubens now, ETC ETC, all bring millions of dollars to teams. That is why they have their rides. I don't care how good you are, if you haven't figured out the business of racing, you will not drive pro at that level. Again, has nothing to do with driving the gray areas of the rules. And, we are not talking about gray here. The GCRs are crystal clear. I agree that many classes have gray rules areas. But the head in SM is not one of those areas. Just a fact, you know exactly what the intent of the head regs are and so does everyone here. So call it for what it is. I again state that shopping for a head that is on the tolerance limit is not cheating and I have no issue with that. I just can't keep up with it.

On a side note though, Vettel is a truly gifted driver that NOW has no trouble finding a ride and no longer needs millions. Nor does Alonso, Hamilton and a couple of other drivers that have since proved that they millions they brought were well spent.