28 replies to this topic

[Charlie Williams]

Been out of touch for a while. I don't see a 2012 SSM Rules document for NE Div. except a 2009 set. What are we using? Thanks, CW

[Terry Whitlock]

Charlie, Hope this means you will be back on track this season. See if this works for you http://www.wdcr-scca...abid=73&mid=535

[Charlie Williams]

Terry,

The link is what I needed. Thanks! I could not locate it on the WDC website for some reason.

I am back. Hope to see you there too!

[Justin Baltrucki]

Looking at the SSM vs SM rules it looks like 1.6 Weights are 2275 for 2012.
SM swapped to 2300 for the 1.6. Anyone know the reason for this difference?

Makes double dipping more of an issue having to swap 25 lbs in and out and make sure you don't go underweight.


edit

2012 SM Restrictor Plates & Weights
1989-93 2300 LBS, NO PLATE SSM = 2275
1994-97 2350 LBS, 45MM PLATE SSM = 2400 and 45mm plate


SM has 50lbs added to the 1.8, and SSM has 125 lbs added to the 1.8. Even more of a difference there.
is the added weight for SSM just because the factory airbox is retained on the 1.6engine?

SM 1.6 Cars must make much more power than SSM 1.6 If there is a 75 Lb difference for the 1.8.
Am i missing something?

[Bench Racer]

SM swapped to 2300 for the 1.6. Anyone know the reason for this difference?

I could offer my logic with reference to the SCCA but then I would get

[FTodaro]

I could offer my logic with reference to the SCCA but then I would get

More like

[Brandon]

I could offer my logic regarding the SSM weights (previously being a 1.8L SSM car) but then I'd get the "WDC treatment"!


In all honesty it's about time there were hard numbers regarding the 1.8L cars - there's now a dyno number to be sealed against.
That should give you an idea on why there's still a 100# penalty for the 1.8L AND you're still required to run the 4.1 rear-end.

But I digress....see the smiley graphic above.

[Justin Baltrucki]

I dont think we have any sealing in the northeast region scca.

I am more interested to know if I should jump to SM2 or SM instead of SSM.
I am kind of questioning the whole point of SSM now that there is SM2 and they group the cars together with SSM.

WIth have half a dozen SM2 cars sandwiched between SSM cars sometimes I only race a few laps with cars in my actual class. With a 1.8L SM2 car having 50 lbs less weight, than an SSM 1.8 (and whatever SM mods are allowed now) it makes it even harder to pass them with a 1.6L SSM. I am wondering if a jump to SM2 is worthwhile as SSM seems to be dwindling down in numbers, and a lack of sealing or any sign of compliance in the northeast makes a more open class more attractive. Anyone have a budgetary number for a reasonable buy in to swap up?

[Jim Drago]

I question the entire need for SM2... seems pretty silly to me. While SSM is not for me, I can at least understand why many run it, I can't say the same for SM2. Run SSM or SM, no need for SM2 IMO. What void does it fill?

[DrDomm]

I question the entire need for SM2... seems pretty silly to me. While SSM is not for me, I can at least understand why many run it, I can't say the same for SM2. Run SSM or SM, no need for SM2 IMO. What void does it fill?

Two reasons. It allows a lot of drivers to double dip (I realize that isn't why it was created), and it weeds out all of the (better prepared) '99s from Regionals. It fills a void in the Region's bank account, also.

[Jim Drago]

Two reasons. It allows a lot of drivers to double dip, and it weeds out many of the (better prepared) '99s from Regionals.

You can double dip in multiple classes, no need for SM2. The second part of your explanation is ridiculous. Rules are rules, prep is prep.. So in SM2, the best 1.6 in the country ( like the one that just won the Sprints and beat most of the best 99's in the country) can run, but ALL 99 ups can't run. That defines stupidity! Splintering the class into these smaller factions is a BAD idea! If you want a trophy, you can just order one for $10-$12 on line and run SM or SSM like everyone else.

[Mike Collins]

At the last race the WDCR-SSM raced in where SM2 was a class the well prepped SSM's, beat the SM2 cars. Our SSM cars have sealed engines.

[svvs]

At the last race the WDCR-SSM raced in where SM2 was a class the well prepped SSM's, beat the SM2 cars. Our SSM cars have sealed engines.

I have a SM2 car. Chris Windsor has beat me in his SSM......he's great under braking, and just a way better driver than I am.

I like the SM2 class because it allows me to double dip my SM. That being said, if SM2 didn't exist, I'd probably double dip into ITA if there were other guys doing it.

[DrDomm]

You can double dip in multiple classes, no need for SM2. The second part of your explanation is ridiculous. Rules are rules, prep is prep.. So in SM2, the best 1.6 in the country ( like the one that just won the Sprints and beat most of the best 99's in the country) can run, but ALL 99 ups can't run. That defines stupidity! Splintering the class into these smaller factions is a BAD idea! If you want a trophy, you can just order one for $10-$12 on line and run SM or SSM like everyone else.

I didn't create the class, I'm just saying what the attraction is for it. I ran SM2 last month when it ran with SM so that I didn't have to pay for my plaque. Last year SM2 got me a bottle of wine. Last weekend, I decided to just run SM so that I didn't have to tape over the "2" before the National, and still got a mug.

I'm not sure SM2 is "BAD" as a regional class. I don't think drivers here feel "splintered". Is there a "need" for it? I don't think so, especially if everyone feels the new weights/plates have equalized the potential of each model. But it gives people another opportunity to run, or share their car with another driver (i.e. a husband/wife, brothers/sisters, etc.).

I also think the recent ITA weight change has made it difficult to double dip into that class. STL (in my opinion) will soon outgrow/outpace NA Spec Miatas. Where else can you (competetively) double dip?

I understand a lot of time and effort was put into making the new weight/plate rules, and that a class like this dismisses the success of that effort. But it was around before that, and some people would be disappointed to see it leave.

[Brandon]

For 2012 I chose to shift into SM from SSM (with my 1.8L) partially due to the bias** against my vehicle type within the SSM ruleset but the bigger reason being the series I'm participating in this year makes no distinction between the prep levels (NNJR Pro-IT series has SM only). Plus I think all 3 models are as close as they've ever been so it's time to learn how to drive this sucker in proper trim!

As I'm not a double-dipper I can't speak to "class creep" being done to support that but my opinion is the SM2 appearance was a direct foil to the pre-2012 SM rules across the 3 types of Miatas. However I feel the 2012 ruleset may have mitigated a lot of those (now mis-)perceptions at least here in the NE but it will take a few more events to really identify a trend (wins, double-dippers...)

Don't get me wrong, I think SSM has given folks without the scratch to participate in races where they normally wouldn't be competitive (or enjoyable) otherwise but I have to agree the further splintering of the NA's doesn't "help" the class or regions unfortunately.

Just more fuel to the fire I guess...
Brandon

** I'm referring to a paraphrase of someone's quote here on the boards a while back (who shall remain nameless) that no 1.8L SSM will ever "win". In other words, the rules have been written and modified over the years to reinforce the positioning of the 1.6L engine. But that's just my own personal feelings on this whole SSM vs. SM or even SSM1.6 vs. SSM1.8 discussion...

[Terry Hanushek]

As I'm not a double-dipper I can't speak to "class creep" being done to support that but my opinion is the SM2 appearance was a direct foil to the pre-2012 SM rules across the 3 types of Miatas. However I feel the 2012 ruleset may have mitigated a lot of those (now mis-)perceptions at least here in the NE but it will take a few more events to really identify a trend (wins, double-dippers...)

You are correct. The SM2 class was adopted by NARRC, NYSRRC and NJRRS in 2011 as a result of the perceived (or real) differences between the NA and 99 models. The 2012 weight and plate adjustments may have lessened the differences but SM2 will remain a class for 2012. Once it was established, SM2 became a convenient opportunity for double dippers which may extend its life.

Terry

[DrDomm]

Are any of the top teams building NA cars now that the 2012 rules have equalized the models? A '90-'97 donor Miata is definitely cheaper to buy than a '99+, so it would make sense that any new cars built by the top teams would be an equal car that is cheaper to build. (slight sarcasm)

The answer to this question would suggest whether or not I should invest in continuous updates on my car, or just save up to buy a '99. My intent is not to rekindle the model warfare of previous years.

[Jim Drago]

Domm
The wear and tear on your car is more of a factor that anything else. I built that car in 2004 I believe, I know it has have several bumps and bruises, I put one pretty good one on it myself, as did the second owner. The car was priced low to mid level SM 12-16k range vs 30k plus for a new one. That coupled with the fact that your relatively new to SM is ALL much more of a factor than your specific car or the generation of your car. Run this season and make a decision then. If you are not within a second of the pole times, this is not something to concern yourself with now as the car is not keeping you from winning. A better car will definitely help your results, but seat time will do more than car at this point IMO. My opinion is always race the best you can afford and take the car out of the equation, with that being said, we have sold many cars that were far ahead of the drivers. My opinion is spend a year or two in an average car and get to wear you are coming into your own, then buy a good car.

For the record, If you gave me a free clean 1.6 donor, versus a clean 99 donor for $4000, I would still build the 99 car as the 1.6 would still cost more to build.

[Astro]

For the record, If you gave me a free clean 1.6 donor, versus a clean 99 donor for $4000, I would still build the 99 car as the 1.6 would still cost more to build.

Can you elaborate?

[Jim Drago]

I could... Or you could use search

The 1.6 is an expensive car to build First of all, EVERYTHING on the 20+ year old 1.6, most built in 89 needs to be changed. A nice 99 donor needs far less parts.
A 1.6 uses no restrictor plate, any gain in power is a gain.. It shows up. On a 99 with a 38 mm plate, the gain is severely minimized... Getting the best flowing intake manifold, cold air intake, throttle body, intake tube, exhaust manifold, exhaust and so on is almost a non factor in a 99 at this point. In a 1.6, it is EASILY a 5-7 hp swing with the same engine. Then you have constant dyno tuning with an antique computer and additional $200 for a blueprinted AFM. Then you have a $2000 diff that you will likely beak at least once during the year. Then you have all the suspension geometry that doesn't matter. A properly built 1.6 can and has beaten all the best 99's in country at the same prep level, but how many what to do all that is another story. I can build a front running 99 up car consistently, on a 1.6, it would get there, but it would be twice the labor hours and more spent i every step of the build. When it was done, I would have race winning car that had to be tuned regularly and went through $2000 diffs regularly.