36 replies to this topic

[Brendan O]

So in Danny’s “Road Atlanta National - Race update” thread, I asked opinions on best method for driving T1 – T3. That got quite a few responses – mainly because of different opinions (of course). Part of the reason I asked is that I am new to driving on a track and just had OPM build a SM for me (they did a great job). They finished in March this year and I wrecked on my first weekend with the car at T3. It was my very first wreck and was quite depressing since it was a brand new build. When I wrecked I had about 8 HPDE weekends in total – mostly Road Atlanta and Barber. In terms of just Road Atlanta, I had a total of about 15 hrs of HPDE with around 4 hrs of instruction. My best is 1:50. I don't have any autoX or karting experience.

As far as the wreck, it was not very good driving at all. I have gone around T3 apex at 70 mph a few times. But this time I did it slower at 65 mph. In the NASA SE class before session, the instructor said you can get right up on the T3 curbing. So I decided to drive up on curbing more than I have done in the past. So the steering wheel was turned to the right quite a bit. I then went to 100% throttle as right rear tire was still bouncing over curbing (in the video 94% throttle is really 100%). I think this caused rear wheels to spin and thus the rear of car stepped out to the left. I was slow to get off throttle and slow to counter steer. I then panicked and locked up the tires (1200 PSI !!) which meant I was not going to change direction. Then I hit the inside wall.

Any how, I’m a newbie and it was a learning experience for sure. I thought you guys might get a kick out of the video. The car is fixed now (thanks again to OPM) but I’m waiting for new engine after old one exploded at Barber in April (I really am having some bad luck this spring). I’m talking to some folks about getting coaching this year. I plan on getting my SCCA license at Roebling in Feb, 2013 and then doing some regionals. I guess I just need to keep practicing with some good instruction. I really would like to get faster hands but I guess that just comes with practice. Any advice would be appreciated - I’ll take free advice anytime

thanks
Brendan

[Keith Novak]

In the slow mo it looks like you're only at about 30-40% throttle, give it extra steering input to turn in more right before you hit the curbing. As you hit the curbing you're still less than half throttle, then give it a quick bit of throttle as the back end starts to step out and lift off again. The car was angry with you in that corner my friend.

I try to be on the throttle hard when I hit curbing to keep the weight on the back tires but then again what do I know?

[Brendan O]

In the slow mo it looks like you're only at about 30-40% throttle, give it extra steering input to turn in more right before you hit the curbing. As you hit the curbing you're still less than half throttle, then give it a quick bit of throttle as the back end starts to step out and lift off again. The car was angry with you in that corner my friend.

I try to be on the throttle hard when I hit curbing to keep the weight on the back tires but then again what do I know?

Throttle was 30-40% approaching curbing but then I "mashed" the throttle instead of "squeezing" it on. And once back end steps out i do lift off throttle completely which completely unweights the rear making matters even worse - i can see why the car was angry at me

[Brandon]

Faster hands perhaps? I'd say there wasn't enough counter-steering input with the first indication of an impending slide. That coupled with Keith's suggestion about a little more throttle input might have kept you out of the wall on the inside but could have thrown you into a tank slapper. Which might have been saveable with a "both in" response after the car was kept from further rotation.

I've seen a similar incident with an E36 BMW at NJMP-Lightning (don't remember the turn or where the video was posted - a BMW club page?) where he managed to not steer out of the slide fast enough and the car went ahead and came around putting him into the inside wall. Faster hands might have helped...

One thing I have found/learned is folks who have autocrossed extensively tend to have the faster instincts to recover from a slide (keeping it from spinning) and whether it's a learned trait or just an automatic response with the control inputs (steering, throttle, brake) I can't say. Now if that's just my own experience talking (12+ years) I can't say but there's nothing wrong with more seat time in the exact vehicle you intend to race and an autocross is by far the cheapest option to do that.

Best of luck with v2!
Brandon

[Doug007]

Ouch. Sorry to hear about the wreck but glad it's back together.

Watch this and then look at the video again:

You made some big input changes (esp. throttle) during that corner and were slow with the countersteering once the car started yawing heavily. You should slow down to the point where you can be 100% on the throttle at the apex and keep weight on the rear. The light lift (40 to 30%) followed by heavy mash to 100% then back to 0% really unsettled the car.

Another key point is you were late getting to the grid. You were probably rushing to get out and not in the right frame of mind. I've done the same thing before. Late to the grid, panic rushing to get out, then drive like complete crap because I have no focus on what I'm doing and was only thinking "I need to hurry and get on track". Don't underestimate that part of the cause!

[Brendan O]

Faster hands perhaps? I'd say there wasn't enough counter-steering input with the first indication of an impending slide. That coupled with Keith's suggestion about a little more throttle input might have kept you out of the wall on the inside but could have thrown you into a tank slapper. Which might have been saveable with a "both in" response after the car was kept from further rotation.

I've seen a similar incident with an E36 BMW at NJMP-Lightning (don't remember the turn or where the video was posted - a BMW club page?) where he managed to not steer out of the slide fast enough and the car went ahead and came around putting him into the inside wall. Faster hands might have helped...

One thing I have found/learned is folks who have autocrossed extensively tend to have the faster instincts to recover from a slide (keeping it from spinning) and whether it's a learned trait or just an automatic response with the control inputs (steering, throttle, brake) I can't say. Now if that's just my own experience talking (12+ years) I can't say but there's nothing wrong with more seat time in the exact vehicle you intend to race and an autocross is by far the cheapest option to do that.

Best of luck with v2!
Brandon

Yes- i was slow to counter steer and i probably didn't turn the wheel enough. I also target fixated - i think i started to stare at the wall instead of turning my head left and looking down the track to where i wanted the car to go.

OK - i am really curious what you guys think about autoX for beginners like myself with slow hands. After crash, a friend was kind enough to let me drive his NC at my very first AX this month (May). I got 6 runs (~50 sec each i think) over 7 hrs. The rest of the time i was working a corner. So here's my thought. Wouldn't it be much better to just find the appropriate abandoned parking lot (i can even use the same one as that event but the pavement is not great) and simply go out there when it's raining, with tired Hoosiers, by myself. I could practice oversteer, understeer etc. I could spend an hour and get A LOT of time controlling the car. Admittedly there would not be others there to get instruction from or to learn from. But 6 minutes per 7 or 8 hours does not seem useful. However, MANY people (on miata.net) have said do autoX before track days. A few others have said don't do it because it teaches you bad habits - habits that are good for AX but not good for track. A few others have said try karts for practice because it's cheaper than an HPDE track day but better than AX. I think i like the idea of karting but i may have to travel to get to a track.

[Jim Boemler]

I wouldn't see it so much a matter of "faster" hands, but more coordination. Your hands and feet need to work together, rather than reacting independently. In this case, the addition of throttle should be accompanied (not afterwards, but at the same time) with backing off on the wheel. This comes with experience, and you have to feel it in the car.

The other thing that comes with more experience is driving the car through an incident. Point the wheels where you want the car to go, and look ahead. In this case you were fixated on getting around the corner, rather than on getting the car further down the track. There's no camera on your eyes, but my bet is that they were WIDE open and pointed at the curb. Bring them up to the entry of the next corner, and let your controls follow them. It comes with time, but something to keep in mind.

And there's something to be said for not starting out with such a nice car.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Stop messing around if you want to improve, and not take a lifetime to do it GET COACHING...

How in the world do you expect to teach yourself car control? Did you teach yourself Rocket Science?

You can spend a thousand times more in crash damage, ax fees and transport to all kinds of events, you can ask everyone here to give input, and you will get so many opinions you head will spin...

COACHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Brendan O]

Ouch. Sorry to hear about the wreck but glad it's back together.

Watch this and then look at the video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgSiK_VarK8

You made some big input changes (esp. throttle) during that corner and were slow with the countersteering once the car started yawing heavily. You should slow down to the point where you can be 100% on the throttle at the apex and keep weight on the rear. The light lift (40 to 30%) followed by heavy mash to 100% then back to 0% really unsettled the car.

Another key point is you were late getting to the grid. You were probably rushing to get out and not in the right frame of mind. I've done the same thing before. Late to the grid, panic rushing to get out, then drive like complete crap because I have no focus on what I'm doing and was only thinking "I need to hurry and get on track". Don't underestimate that part of the cause!

That is an interesting video that i had not seen before (where is his shirt ?!?). Some of what he said is in Skip Barber's "Going Faster" book which i do have and have read several times (ok - not every page - it's 250 pages long). Being smooth helps a lot. Here is a side by side comparison where i am faster around T3 and i don't crash. Everything is smoother (unfortunately you can't see my hands but you can see the throttle application is smoother and i don't drive over curbing as much). It just goes to show that being smooth and slow (or boring) with some things (like steering, throttle, use of curbing) can result in faster times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsreOEc3YZw

I agree 100% about the mental thing. I was late, rushed, flustered - not calm. I was not in the right frame of mind. The tires were cold and my brain was cold. After just one lap i started pushing really hard and my head was still not in the game. I am pretty sure that will not happen to me again. After the crash, I have decided to go through a routine before going out on the track - no matter what - no matter how late I am to grid. No matter what, i'm going to take the time to relax and rehearse the course in my mind before going out there.

[Brendan O]

Best of luck with v2!
Brandon

Here's a plug for Tom, Ryan and the suppliers that OPM use.

Pics of damage:
https://picasaweb.go...RoadAtlantaNASA

Pics of V2 after OPM worked their magic!
https://picasaweb.go...4/2003ShinsenSM

IMHO the car looks even better than before the wreck. So I better not wreck again for a good long time.

[Michael Colangelo]

Ugh, sorry to hear about this. You're not the only one who had a bad weekend. I wrecked my car last weekend, too.

But it sounds like we're both healthy and that's what matters.

BTW, what video and data systems are you using? I like the overlays on the video.

P.S. I agree with Kyle, coaching is next on my list.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Ugh, sorry to hear about this. You're not the only one who had a bad weekend. I wrecked my car last weekend, too.

But it sounds like we're both healthy and that's what matters.

BTW, what video and data systems are you using? I like the overlays on the video.

P.S. I agree with Kyle, coaching is next on my list.

My post was 100% serious, not a personal attack or as the Clown says SNARKY...

I have got coaching, it helped lots, I am still getting coaching because I still have lots of improving to do! Having some Shameless EAST STREET power hasn't hurt either LOLOLOLOL...

Like I said many moons ago (not to be confused with what i said about moovn) We wouldnt send our kids to school to teach themselves, no football team succeeds without a great coaching staff...
The HPDE is a sucky way to learn racing IMO, dont get me wrong there are some good teachers there, but not many, and its luck of the draw, you could just as easily get a guy that couldnt drive his way out of a wet paper bag, I started in HPDE, it sucked but one great teacher got ahold of me, I was lucky.

If you want to be successful in life, we all search out the best school to go to, or the best development path for our careers. While this is a hobby to all of us but those who will go PRO, if you really want success in this class, you have to get serious about your driving career path. What do you have, what do you lack, what part of your lack will make the most impact the quickest, and where do I get the skills to turn that lack into a asset. I rank my deficiencies in order of ROI... Fixing which one will bring me the biggest gain, down to the smallest weakness which may gain the smallest amount of gains.

Michael Angelo... Knowing is 1/3 the battle, the other 1/3's are making a plan and seeing it through! I am still working on that last part...

Happy hollidays everyone!!!!! Drink a beer for me YOU know I will be drinking some for all of you...

[Keith Novak]

Wouldn't it be much better to just find the appropriate abandoned parking lot (i can even use the same one as that event but the pavement is not great) and simply go out there when it's raining, with tired Hoosiers, by myself. I could practice oversteer, understeer etc. I could spend an hour and get A LOT of time controlling the car.

Something similar was recommended to me by a very good SM driver after having done it himself. Mount up your nastiest old tires and intentionally drift the car like mad. He said do it all day but you might have to keep an eye out for the cops in a parking lot. After you spend a while practicing getting the car horribly out of shape, you'll have a lot more confidence when the car steps out on the track.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

So in Danny’s “Road Atlanta National - Race update” thread, I asked opinions on best method for driving T1 – T3. That got quite a few responses – mainly because of different opinions (of course). Part of the reason I asked is that I am new to driving on a track and just had OPM build a SM for me (they did a great job). They finished in March this year and I wrecked on my first weekend with the car at T3. It was my very first wreck and was quite depressing since it was a brand new build. When I wrecked I had about 8 HPDE weekends in total – mostly Road Atlanta and Barber. In terms of just Road Atlanta, I had a total of about 15 hrs of HPDE with around 4 hrs of instruction. My best is 1:50. I don't have any autoX or karting experience.

As far as the wreck, it was not very good driving at all. I have gone around T3 apex at 70 mph a few times. But this time I did it slower at 65 mph. In the NASA SE class before session, the instructor said you can get right up on the T3 curbing. So I decided to drive up on curbing more than I have done in the past. So the steering wheel was turned to the right quite a bit. I then went to 100% throttle as right rear tire was still bouncing over curbing (in the video 94% throttle is really 100%). I think this caused rear wheels to spin and thus the rear of car stepped out to the left. I was slow to get off throttle and slow to counter steer. I then panicked and locked up the tires (1200 PSI !!) which meant I was not going to change direction. Then I hit the inside wall.

Any how, I’m a newbie and it was a learning experience for sure. I thought you guys might get a kick out of the video. The car is fixed now (thanks again to OPM) but I’m waiting for new engine after old one exploded at Barber in April (I really am having some bad luck this spring). I’m talking to some folks about getting coaching this year. I plan on getting my SCCA license at Roebling in Feb, 2013 and then doing some regionals. I guess I just need to keep practicing with some good instruction. I really would like to get faster hands but I guess that just comes with practice. Any advice would be appreciated - I’ll take free advice anytime

thanks
Brendan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfKcceNJj94

sorry to say this i new you were going to hit when you came out of the pits YOU MUST GET YOU TRIRES UP TO TEMP FIRE ALL OF YOU COACHES NOW THEY WILL COST YOU MORE MONEY . second work on your down shifr blips you went from 5th to third real late turn 10 a . sorry im so cridical no temp in your tires thats the only thing

[Mark McCallister]

The lower probability of getting arrested at an autocross somewhat offsets the reduced seat-time. Some really enjoy the challenge of auto-x and some don't, it's a different game to be sure, but a couple spins taught me what not to do in a Miata (with no walls to hit). Auto-x is definitely a different challenge.

One thing to do is seek out auto-x's with lower attendance where they do fun-runs after the competition - there are also auto-x practice days and schools - for instance at Daytona a couple weeks ago they had an auto-x on the kart track during the club race - looked like they did an hour or two of fun-runs after the auto-x for whoever wanted to hang out and spend the tire. But if you want to be good at racing, never give up a day at the race track for a day auto-xing.

Fast hands to correct a slide does not diminish the need for quote-unquote slow smooth hands in normal steering to keep weight transfer under control (as Jackie instructs). If you're going to hit something slippery (curb, oil, mufflers, paint, dirt, etc.) straighten the car before you hit it and then go back to turning- the amount you need to straighten it is learned through practice.

Watch some of Danny's rain laps such as or for good sideways entertainment too...

[Muda]

Looks like you put in waaay too much steering input. The car landed, the fronts dug in and to make it worst you stomped on it. You're supposed to end up on the left curb, you ended up almost mid track. Watch how Danny does it here:
You've got more than twice the steering input that he does and you started it 30 feet earlier. Slower hands and you won't need the fast hands.

Ahhh, yea, coaching helps a lot.

[Brendan O]

I wouldn't see it so much a matter of "faster" hands, but more coordination. Your hands and feet need to work together, rather than reacting independently. In this case, the addition of throttle should be accompanied (not afterwards, but at the same time) with backing off on the wheel. This comes with experience, and you have to feel it in the car.

The other thing that comes with more experience is driving the car through an incident. Point the wheels where you want the car to go, and look ahead. In this case you were fixated on getting around the corner, rather than on getting the car further down the track. There's no camera on your eyes, but my bet is that they were WIDE open and pointed at the curb. Bring them up to the entry of the next corner, and let your controls follow them. It comes with time, but something to keep in mind.

And there's something to be said for not starting out with such a nice car.

Very good advice. The wheel was turned much more than usual for me. If i wanted to mash the throttle (which you should never do anyway - you should squeeze), I should have immediately started straightening the wheel - probably should have done this before increasing throttle. I bet there is a good chance the car would have broke loose even if there had not been any curbing at all. I normally don't turn the wheel that much. It was the classroom session that got me thinking I should drive up more on the curb but i used the wrong line to do it.

I'm sure you are right about my eyes - i was probably looking at the curbing. Then, when things went south, i'm pretty sure a started to stare at the wall that was coming fast - instead of turning my head left away from the wall and looking down the track. At some point i gave up on save attempt and locked everything up, sealing my fate.

And yes - crashing a nice car is not fun - i was quite depressed after - having never crashed before.

[Brendan O]

Stop messing around if you want to improve, and not take a lifetime to do it GET COACHING...

How in the world do you expect to teach yourself car control? Did you teach yourself Rocket Science?

You can spend a thousand times more in crash damage, ax fees and transport to all kinds of events, you can ask everyone here to give input, and you will get so many opinions you head will spin...

COACHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agreed - it is in the works - we are trying to line up our schedules.

[Brendan O]

Ugh, sorry to hear about this. You're not the only one who had a bad weekend. I wrecked my car last weekend, too.

But it sounds like we're both healthy and that's what matters.

BTW, what video and data systems are you using? I like the overlays on the video.

Sorry about your wreck and glad you are ok as well.

RE the video overlays:

Thanks !! I've spent a lot of time getting it the way i like it. Since i'm lazy i'm going to copy and paste some old miata.net posts so they are a bit disjointed.

Chasecam PDR100 System
This includes solid state video recorder with internal accelerometers and G-Force trigger activation; bullet camera mounted on windshield with suction cup mount - all from Chasecam. The G-Force trigger is really cool. You simply set some parameters and then the recorder automatically starts recording when it senses real lap motion - not just paddock motion. It also stops recording by itself when it senses you are no longer doing laps (it waits a programmable number of seconds before stopping). It also powers on and off using ignition power which is nice. Basically you don’t have to do a thing – you never have to remember to turn things on when you are rushing to make the grid for your session. You just start the car like you normally do and everything is taken care of. The recorder also embeds the longitudinal and lateral Gs in each video frame while recording. The scales (min/max, color, location, number text) are all customizable. Due to accelerometers, the recorder must be mounted carefully wrt the axis of travel. The Chasecam video does NOT have the gauges - those are added during post processing.

Chasecam provides PC software (Dashware) that understands CSV files generated by different data logger companies (TraqMate, AIM etc) and it will overlay gauges onto the Chasecam raw video and then generate a new video.

See:
www.chasecam.com

AIM EVO 4 Data Logger with MyChron 3 Display
The AIM EVO4 is a solid state computer (data logger) with accelerometers and GPS. It also has CAN bus which is really cool if I ever get newer ECU. The EVO4 computer must also be mounted carefully in car wrt axis of travel due to internal accelerometers. It is connected to analog RPM signal in car (not using CAN bus). It records two sets of longitudinal and lateral Gs: internal accelerometers and GPS values. It also record GPS speed and GPS lat/long as well as elapsed time/distance. It can do this at up to 50 Hz. It can also record analog speedometer signal (mph), analog oil temp, water temp, fuel pressure etc but I haven’t connected these up yet.

See:
http://www.aim-sport....n_car_evo4.htm

So the process for overlaying the gauges on the video has a steep learning curve but once you have it the way you like it you can save a “template” so that all future videos are really quick. The process is:

1) Remove compact flash card from Chasecam PDR100 in car and download to windows PC.
2) Connect PC directly to AIM EVO4 inside car using USB cable and download AIM data files (RPM, GPS speed, lat/long, time, distance).
3) Open AIM RaceStudio software and insert the lap start/stop lat/long using a database of tracks – you simply pick the track (e.g. Road Atlanta) and the software looks up the lap start/finish lat/long. Once the RaceStudio software has start/finish it can calculate lap times and time offsets from start of lap.
4) Use AIM RaceStudio PC software to export AIM specific data file to generic CSV file that Chasecam Dashware will understand.
5) Open Chasecam Dashware software on PC and create a new project using your favorite guage template (e.g. two gauges, track map and lap time at top of video).
6) Import the AIM CSV file.
7) Import the Dashware raw video file with embedded Gs.
8) Sync the video with the CSV file – I use the video Gs vs the CSV Gs or I use the video engine sound vs the AIM CSV RPM value.
9) Once you are synced, you simply click on generate video and Dashware generates a new MP4 file that YouTube understands.

Easy

More Info:

AIM EVO4 Logger
This box is the one closest to rear bulk head and must be aligned in certain specific ways due to internal accelerometers. We have it mounted on tall (1.0") posts to keep it away from tranny heat.
It currently has 3 analog inputs from engine bay: RPM, throttle position sensor (string pot), brake pressure (MSI in master cylinder). It has many more inputs that are still unused - it is a very powerful / flexible logger - maybe overkill for SM.
It also has hard wired GPS antenna.
It also has a CAN bus port.
It also has USB port for downloading data files to Windows laptop.

AIM 4 Port CAN-Bus Expansion Module (data hub)
This box is in front of the EVO4 and can be mounted in any orientation.
It is connected to EVO4 behind it and the AIM MyChron3 display mounted on the dash.
It is basically a hub/switch (like Ethernet) for connecting many CAN-bus devices.
The EVO4 sends data (speed, RPM, TPS, segment time, current lap time, best lap time etc) to hub which then sends to MyChron3 display.

AIM is pretty amazing and the Race Studio software is REALLY cool. But ... it is more expensive than Traqmate and less common than Traqmate in SM in the south east (I think California uses AIM more than Traqmate).

[Jim Drago]

As far as the wreck, it was not very good driving at all. I have gone around T3 apex at 70 mph a few times. But this time I did it slower at 65 mph. In the NASA SE class before session, the instructor said you can get right up on the T3 curbing. So I decided to drive up on curbing more than I have done in the past. So the steering wheel was turned to the right quite a bit. I then went to 100% throttle as right rear tire was still bouncing over curbing (in the video 94% throttle is really 100%). I think this caused rear wheels to spin and thus the rear of car stepped out to the left. I was slow to get off throttle and slow to counter steer. I then panicked and locked up the tires (1200 PSI !!) which meant I was not going to change direction. Then I hit the inside wall.


thanks
Brendan

Brendan
First and foremost, I'm sorry about the car. I crashed missing T1 trackout and on the wet grass into the wall( there were no tires there then) in my third race ever, in 2004 ECR lap 7. The shop that installed my new Sunbelt timed it with the wrong timing mark and I lost the engine the next weekend. So in two weekends I went through a car and a $5500 engine. I was ready to quit. Very depressing besides being expensive.

As far as wreck, it looks like you went full throttle as rear wheel bounced over curb, causing the spin. Your hands were a little slow on the correction.

Keep your head up. EVERY ONE on this forum, ( and I do mean EVERYONE) has done worse. Learn from it and try not to do it again.
Good luck, sorry about the car

Webb,
I learned how to drive doing PCA events and DE's, I still instruct whenever I can because I believe i owe them for the education they gave me, literally.


Also, I agree, Ryan at OPM is a great asset!




Jim