32 replies to this topic

[DennisValet]

Preliminary minutes

http://scca.cdn.race...lim.minutes.pdf

Interesting, to say the least

"Lastly, we are interested in introducing a spec GT option into GTL. Our initial concept is to base this
on a modified Spec Miata which would be allowed to:

1. Reduce weight by 200-300 pounds through removal of components and replacement of body
panels
2. Run some spec alternative engine package. Perhaps limited to alternate spec cam and ECU
or, alternately, with some spec turbo kit and restrictor on the current engine.
3. Free brakes
4. Racing tires

We are seeking input from members that are interested in pursuing this package and working with the
CRB and GTAC to develop this specification for 2013."

[Jim Boemler]

Booooo.

[pat slattery]

Why???

[William Bonsell]

Booooo.

+1...Why indeed...too many classes now, IMO.

[FastM3]

So a very small group of people can spen LOTS of money but are afraid to race in Spec Miata, SSM or SM2. Don't the big muckity mucks know that the true base of the sport is a consistent low cost class.

Reminds me of when we raced laydown karts in the '80s and people started running 4 cycle karts so they could spend megabucks to go slower. Makes no sense to me.

We are in process to kill ITA for the 1.6 which was one of the best places to start racing while getting used to traffic and speed differentials and are forcing cars to STL where the car is hoplesly outclassed unless lot of money is spent. Two years ago we all needed to go to Torsens (which I agree was the best thing for reliability) and now theoretically they are now illegal for ITA. It's just madness.

Has anyone noticed the smaller fields.

Sorry for the rant but It seems that some people (business') need to create new cars and classes to survive but are raising racing costs and eventually will cause more people to leave the sport.

Phil 38 SM / SM2 / ITA ??

[Jim Boemler]

Why???

People are answering this for me. The biggest problem is that a given car run SM, or GTL, but there's no crossover. That hurts both classes, and provides little real benefit in return. What's needed is a way to run more races, not a way to isolate a car to one class. BTW, we see this through the prism of Spec Miata, but the same is probably true across the board.

[Jim Drago]

We in Sm are a little narrow minded and sometimes think the entire racing world thinks like we do, I am guilty of this as well. First of all, your 1.6 car WAS NEVER competitive in ITA, if it was, there was no real ITA cars running. ITA as class does not like SM crossover, don't want us as crossover. They like their class as it is and if we want to race in their class that is fine, but they want us racing under their rules. A legal SM shouldn't be able to compete in IT or STL, those classes should welcome our numbers, but often don't, that is their prerogative, we are in their playground. While we shouldnt be competitive, a good SM pilot often beats up on many of the other drivers in other classes and they don't like it.

As for this GTL deal, this is GTL trying whatever they can to grow their numbers, we are a big pond to draw from. If they can convince some of us to move this route, they could possibly grow their class, at the expense of ours.

[plane]

Seems like they should be trying to idenify the next fun car that could turn into Spec Miata or E30. Escorts? Mitsubishies? Celicas? GTIs? Soemthing a little differnt for people who want more (power? room? FWD? Not having to explain to women why a Miata is a great race car?)...

[Rob Burgoon]

Seems like they should be trying to idenify the next fun car that could turn into Spec Miata or E30. Escorts? Mitsubishies? Celicas? GTIs? Soemthing a little differnt for people who want more (power? room? FWD? Not having to explain to women why a Miata is a great race car?)...

spec honda S2K

[Jim Drago]

They "like" their class, just like we like what SM is and we like it for those reasons... GTL ( in this case) guys like their class, and feel if those silly Sm guys could just see what we see in our class, they could be competitive, faster and have more fun for similar money etc. If I have learned anything, driivers are ALL passionate about their cars and their classes..

[Kyle Disque]

The idea is that there might be some SM folks who might want to go faster. I know through the socialist miata "prism" glasses, you guys think that SM is the best thing ever.

There is another side to the club racing coin. SM is one of the slowest national classes out there. Some folks think that fast cars are fun. I'm sorry guys, but few people outside of SM look at a basically stock 13 year old miata with a badly thought out suspension package and body work that typically looks like the day after a demolition derby and see a cool car. Yeah yeah ... big fields of "similar" cars ... close racing ... been there .... trust me, I get it .... there is great value to SM, but it's not everything to everybody.

So before you throw the socialist miata wet blanket of the idea that a little "excess" for fun's sake is a bad idea, think about what it might be like to pull 2.25Gs in T1 at WGI. Trust me, it's fun.

There is a world outside Spec Miata. Sure, GTL is looking to increase it's numbers. But for what its worth, the same can be said of every class short of SM, SRF, and FV. This is just another option in an already existing class. It's not another class. It's another option, without another class.

GTL will be trying to adopt a philosophy of inclusion. We will be thinking outside the box and looking for innovative ways to grow. After all, isn't innovation the very idea behind a class like GTL?

Consider that you can field a great GTL with a tube frame, composite body, Penske dampers, slicks, big brakes, dry sump, dog ring gearbox, quick change rear, etc for less money (way less) than a top flight SM.

-Kyle

[Rob Burgoon]

Consider that you can field a great GTL with a tube frame, composite body, Penske dampers, slicks, big brakes, dry sump, dog ring gearbox, quick change rear, etc for less money (way less) than a top flight SM.

-Kyle

Ahh, the mythical $35K SM. A top flight GTL car if the class was as competitive as SM would be.... $200K?

[Jim Boemler]

I hear ya, Kyle, but if this is allowed, would the Miatas in GTL be allowed to be tube-frame and carbon fiber? And regardless, do you think any SMs are going to convert? I just doubt it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed, but I don't see it being a winner.

[Kyle Disque]

All good points.

A top flight SM is $50k, not $35k.

Jim, you can build that miata for GTL now. This idea is to provide a way to move to GTL for far less money than that car. To spec some high dollar parts and give the owner a place to go faster than SM and be competitive. To give a SM guy who's looking for more speed and less body damage a national class to move to for short money.

Many of the parts that will be spec'd for this car are already pieces that a decent SM build is buying anyway (cams, etc).

Folks, my GTL build dollars are based on buying an existing GTL. Building a tube car from scratch can be expensive (top cars from a pro builder are $80k). It doesn't have to be though. I know of a new from scratch GT3 miata being build right now and I'd bet that the builder will have less than $25k in it and it will be a runoffs podium caliber car with all the goodies.

This is a way for an SM guy to go WAY faster for less money than a top flight SM build and run competitively in a national class. Things like big brakes, slicks, etc seem like fluff, but they're not. They really make the car more fun to drive.

Don't forget that SM (like all big hitters) leads the club in both participation numbers AND drop out numbers.

There are other ways to skin a cat.

-Kyle

[Jim Drago]

Kyle makes some good points, I have had conversations with him about this subject. I like his(their, GTL ) approach of inclusion, he realizes that there won't be a mass exodus from SM to GTL, but some may like the idea and may be a good fit for them. I have no issue with that.

As far as all the stereotypical Sm bashing.. Well, I will cut Kyle some slack as he is an old Sm racer. The damage is way over rated in Sm, when you have 30-50 car fields, there will be some damage compared to 6 -10 car fields with a lap differential of 5+ seconds as far as 50k cars.. I am sure there are a few out there, I sold the pole winning car at last years runoffs for 35k, I will sell my car at ANYTIME other than a few weeks before the Runoffs for 35k, sell you a new one just like it for $32,500 plus seat and transponder. I think are cars are pretty "competitive"

All that being said, I respect what they are trying to do to build what they believe is a better or at least a different mouse trap. Could be some who read this thread that think that this approach to GTL is exactly what they are looking for, if they get one, it is a success.

And Rob, I think 250 K

[Jim Drago]

Kyle,
The one slippery slope is you have to make the car "competitive" , meaning it has to be able to win in a competitive field with a competent driver... The problem you ( GTL) will have is if and when one of these hybrids does win, will the GTL community still be so accepting or try to slap it with rewards weight? I know, don't put the cart before the horse, just food for thought,

[Jim Boemler]

I'm still trying to understand the build. Is the chassis a matter of stripping a production car and adding carbon panels? If so, do you really figure a 300 pound loss is reasonable to expect? I'm doubting it. If it's a tube frame car, I'd be doubting the cost numbers.

As for engine, it doesn't seem like you're allowing any serious power, just incremental additions from SM. I look at a couple of hundred pounds less, and a few HP more, but this doesn't strike me as a really fast car. Am I wrong?

[Rob Burgoon]

This is a way for an SM guy to go WAY faster for less money than a top flight SM build and run competitively in a national class. Things like big brakes, slicks, etc seem like fluff, but they're not. They really make the car more fun to drive.

-Kyle

This is pretty much just like STL. I could build a budget STL car, go much faster, destroy the 99 SM guys that are pulling their plates without adding the required driveshaft hoops, and take all the prize money for winning. This will work for about 1 year until another brisk driver from SM gets the same idea and builds a slightly less budget STL car. Then the arms race starts. Before you know it, we're on to pro engines and all the rest. And that's before someone starts cheating. If you think SM doesn't have enough tech, just imagine what a class of 4 with a bunch of exotic mods is like for the tech trailer. And then, $30K later, you find out you built the wrong car. For that year. All to snap up some prize money in an uncompetitive class where you win because you put more money into your car than the other guy.

It's somewhere between these 2 extremes:
1. class isn't competitive, might as well do track days and have 0 contact and 0 rules holding you back (truly no cheaper way to go fast)
2. class is competitive, there is an arms race and you smash the cars up.

I believe #2 is gonna be much more expensive in STL or GTL. It's bad enough in SM and we have it somewhat under control.

Ok Jim, $250K. Gotta add the "you have too much stinkin money you rich bastard" tax. Add another $20K for "this is for your son?"

[Jim Drago]

It is a lighter version of our production car, not a tube frame. Tube frame Miata is already allowed in GTL. Then allow a spec set of changes to the cars to run in STL. So I think the goal is to run a miata in I guess a "spec GTL" trim. allowing only certain mods like we do in Sm

[Rob Burgoon]

I'm still trying to understand the build. Is the chassis a matter of stripping a production car and adding carbon panels? If so, do you really figure a 300 pound loss is reasonable to expect? I'm doubting it. If it's a tube frame car, I'd be doubting the cost numbers.

As for engine, it doesn't seem like you're allowing any serious power, just incremental additions from SM. I look at a couple of hundred pounds less, and a few HP more, but this doesn't strike me as a really fast car. Am I wrong?

300lbs can't be practical. Top, dash, lights, bumpers, hood is already light, there isn't much more to easily come out or replace. Tubular subframes and control arms.... umm..... wire harness?