35 replies to this topic

[Jim Boemler]

'fishguyaz', on 19 Jul 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

as far as working, I know first hand from my own experience that they work as advertised.
I had a slow hit where i t-boned a guy doing something really dumb while trying to exit the track.
maybe 40 by the time i hit him. the teathers got tight, and my forward neck motion was stopped.
the restraining motion was significant enough that my jaw did get a bit dislocated and was sore for a few day. that was with a mouth gaurd being worn as well.
the HANS device works, and like a harness and helmet, i dont need a rule to make me use one.

Well, there are lots of anecdotes. I've had three frontal collisions similar to what you described, at just slightly slower speeds (around 35). I had no ill effects from any of them, with no HANS. If I look at your anecdote and mine together, I could conclude that the HANS device you wore cost you a dislocated jaw and associated pain. I'm not saying that's a correct conclusion, but it's supported by the anecdotes, every bit as much as your decision to wear the HANS.

[dstevens]

'MPR22', on 19 Jul 2012 - 7:54 PM, said:

http://www.thatsraci...ype==

Road racing sure seems safe compared to small oval and drag racing.

Number of people, drags and short track are an order of magnitude more popular than wheel to wheel club racing. Unfortunate but true.

[Keith Novak]

'fishguyaz', on 19 Jul 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

didnt the defender thing come out with this design already?
the defender cannot be used because of the sfi rating it didnt get.
so now HANS "steals" that part of the design.
I own 2 HANS devices, a 20 for my SM, and a 30 for my FF. one device would have been nice.

The defnder did come out with an adjustable angle first. It's a nice feature if you have a car where you're sitting at a very different angle than a typical sporty car. Looks to me more like they didn't think it made financial sense to battle with HANS over the patent case and sold the rights to their design rather than pay to get their SFI rating re-done. The HANS adjusts the angle in a different way so you can't quite say they stole anything.

[dstevens]

'Jamz14', on 19 Jul 2012 - 9:39 PM, said:

But the report said that it specifically excluded deaths from youth kart racing.

it's not youth karting, it's road race karting which is pretty much the same demographic as SM. At the IKF Road Race Grand Nationals in 2003 there was a fatality in the Rotax class. I knew two of the others. After my wife saw me road race the kart she asked that I move to cars. A built 125cc shifter or a 250 Superkart is faster than an SM. And a lot more dangerous. Road race karting averages a fatality about every year and a half to two years.

[dstevens]

'Rob Burgoon', on 19 Jul 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Our cars don't really demand fire suits. How many SM do you know of that had a big fire in the cabin? A small campfire coming out of the shifter boot doesn't count.

That may be tongue in cheek but it's interesting you bring that up because in the Div 3 and 4 NASCAR local classes won't require an SFI firesuit until next year. And only an SFI-1. It was at the local promoter's option. All you needed was an SA approved helmet, that most of the time wasn't checked because they were too busy looking for cheats on the car. Gloves were even optional.

[Rob Burgoon]

'dstevens', on 20 Jul 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

That may be tongue in cheek but it's interesting you bring that up because in the Div 3 and 4 NASCAR local classes won't require an SFI firesuit until next year. And only an SFI-1. It was at the local promoter's option. All you needed was an SA approved helmet, that most of the time wasn't checked because they were too busy looking for cheats on the car. Gloves were even optional.

I'm actually serious, I'd be fine with tee-shirt and jeans in SM. A damn sight more comfortable in summer. It seems that the fuel system is fairly well protected in these cars and are trustworthy so long as you don't screw up a fuel cell installation or something. I'll bet the biggest threat is some goof in another class dousing you in gasoline from his heap.

[Keith Novak]

'Rob Burgoon', on 20 Jul 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

I'm actually serious, I'd be fine with tee-shirt and jeans in SM. A damn sight more comfortable in summer. It seems that the fuel system is fairly well protected in these cars and are trustworthy so long as you don't screw up a fuel cell installation or something. I'll bet the biggest threat is some goof in another class dousing you in gasoline from his heap.

I tend to agree but the way I see it is the rules in driver safety gear aren't created for SM. It's a minimum standard based on that goof in the other class. We get caught up in meeting that minimum safety standard and I'm cool with that.

[Sean - MiataCage]

'Rob Burgoon', on 20 Jul 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

I'm actually serious, I'd be fine with tee-shirt and jeans in SM. A damn sight more comfortable in summer. It seems that the fuel system is fairly well protected in these cars and are trustworthy so long as you don't screw up a fuel cell installation or something. I'll bet the biggest threat is some goof in another class dousing you in gasoline from his heap.

Ask Charles Espenlaub how he feels about this....... It only takes once and last I checked we were not being paid to race SM's so getting to work on Monday and back to the family is certainly a priority for me....

Sean

[ryoung99]

'Rob Burgoon', on 20 Jul 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

I'm actually serious, I'd be fine with tee-shirt and jeans in SM. A damn sight more comfortable in summer. It seems that the fuel system is fairly well protected in these cars and are trustworthy so long as you don't screw up a fuel cell installation or something. I'll bet the biggest threat is some goof in another class dousing you in gasoline from his heap.

My guess is you have never been in a burning race car.

Coming from someone who has been in two of them, I will stick with the fire suit and a cool shirt for comfort. Skin graphs suck!

[Rob Burgoon]

'Sean - MiataCage', on 20 Jul 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

Ask Charles Espenlaub how he feels about this....... It only takes once and last I checked we were not being paid to race SM's so getting to work on Monday and back to the family is certainly a priority for me....

Sean

Wasn't that in an NC with compromised fuel hoses and an overloaded driveshaft?

'ryoung99', on 20 Jul 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

My guess is you have never been in a burning race car.

Coming from someone who has been in two of them, I will stick with the fire suit and a cool shirt for comfort. Skin graphs suck!

On fire yes, driver burning, no.

How many of those 2 burning cars were SMs?

Anyway, it's moot since there's no way any group will drop fire gear at this point.

I'd rather see every SM racer have containment on both sides and a neck device than see every SM racer in fire gear.

[Sean - MiataCage]

'Rob Burgoon', on 20 Jul 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

Wasn't that in an NC with compromised fuel hoses and an overloaded driveshaft?

It was an NC which happens to have the stock fuel tank in the exact same spot as the NA and NB and they were stock fuel lines. I have no clue what an overloaded driveshaft is, but it really doesn't matter. You can certainly justify it to yourself anyway you want. I try to look at it as an opportunity to learn from it and better myself by practicing getting out of the car in a hurry and improving my safety gear. No matter how hot it is out I will still wear carbon X underwear even with a 3 layer suit.

Safety is a very personal decision for each person and I feel like my comfort level has changed over the years based on what I have seen and read from other peoples experiences.

Be safe.... whatever that means to you.

[Bruce Wilson]

I've had some small hits without a hans and some really big hits with a hans and I gotta say, I'd rather hit a wall at 70mph with a hans than a wall at 35mph without a hans. The later friggin hurts! Also superheated gas tank is a problem with SM. Rob be sure stop if you ever lose a muffler while wearing your t-shirt

-bw

[Jim Boemler]

Bruce's reference to heat is real, Rob. One of our locals had a tailpipe come apart, and the exhaust ended up pointing at the gas tank. The driver noticed (!) that the gas cap left the car with a bang, pulled over, and exited the car VERY fast. No harm and no fire, but it could have been very different.

[dstevens]

'Sean - MiataCage', on 20 Jul 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

I have no clue what an overloaded driveshaft is, but it really doesn't matter.

In the side bar in the Grassroots article MER has a bit about the driveshaft exploding after the car was stopped as a result of the explosion from a fuel tank fire. They flat out call the driveshaft issue "misinformation" on the Internet. They believe he was racing for a bit with a fire in the tank which is what caused the explosion.

[Brandon]

I recall something to the effect that there was a metal (uncertain to the type - Al or Fe) cover over/around the tank in some fashion and the fuel fire was propagating between the two tanks. This would explain the inability of the on-board fire system to suppress the fire while possibly reinforcing any explosion of the tank.

If we're gonna race without Nomex suits, gloves, & shoes then we'd better require fire systems with all nozzles pointed at our junk!

[Kyle Keenan]

'Rob Burgoon', on 19 Jul 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Our cars don't really demand fire suits. How many SM do you know of that had a big fire in the cabin? A small campfire coming out of the shifter boot doesn't count.

2, one of the cars completely black on the inside, only went 1000ft on fire before it came to a stop. Want to drive it?