87 replies to this topic

[Forrest Landy]

A few years ago my brother and I raced rotax karts. It was a spec class, we all had the same engines, the same tires, and near identicle chassis. The time was all in the drivers hands as it all came down to skill and setup. They had an interesting solution to engine parity that I thought I might share... You could buy an unsealed Rotax engine and then a series tech official would seal it knowing it was in order through an inspection. I think this could work with SM, you could still have your pro engines but everyone already knows that seal means a legal engine so all accusations of cheating, with the engine at least go out the window (theoretically)... I think this would help regional racing more as the tech inspections are a little less thorough as the inspectors dont have the time or the motivation to tear down an engine considering that they are never very high profile weekends. Also this would give all the drivers that added peace of mind that everybody else engine is legal.

Of course there are some giant problems with this idea, like having to include a thourough engine inspection as part of annual tech but could the benefit outweigh the cost? I think this is definatly more fesiable then all of us buying sealed engines from Mazdaspeed (Like in Mx5 cup), especially considering the diffrences in all the various generations of engines. It also keeps the quality up as the build shops still turn out the same product as they are now. All I think this would change is that it will keep everyone honest about their build. I think the way SSM does it is they are sealed at a set HP number instead of engine construction legality.

Of course there are a million other ways to cheat and to bend the rules and the really fast guys will exploit those opportunities, its just a fact of racing and I get that. But in regional racing In my opinion this could really help compettition and put everyones mind at ease.

Of course I am speaking from a rookies perspective and I dont know how hard it is to check the specific details of an engines legality. I understand from reading other threads that even with ample time, the tools don't exist so this can be done 100% consistently as engines vary so much.

Anyways just my opinion. I hope no one is offended by this but knowing these forums I dont doubt sombody is.....

This may have been talked about before in one shape or another so I apologize for beating a dead horse but I think this is a new take on it.

[Rob Burgoon]

Please try the search function.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

This is the right place to have that discussion if you want to not on every other damn thread which is what always happens, so good on you...

[Rob Burgoon]

Kyle is a glass half full kinda guy.

[Alberto]

I also used to race Rotax and Sr. Sportsman so I know where you are coming from. The discussion has take place repeatedly.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Kyle is a glass half full kinda guy.

And you the glass.75 empty kind of guy. Landy might need to have his conversation. I donot must mean I have been around to long now and seen and heard much
To me spec or sealed engines just mean a wider gulf between halves and have nots but every once in a while some poor slob will get lucky and get a sealed engine that is faster than everyone elses its like playing he power ball we all have a chance but only very few win at that game

[LarryKing]

How 'bout this. The first season I raced SM we were required to use the Mazdacomp exhaust, and for the first part of that season we had to run the stock airbox (1.6 L).

People are always going to push for an advantage, however if we all had to "breathe through the same straw," so to speak, it may take away some of the horsepower disparity for a relatively low cost.

Just an observation, but it seems like mostly the "haves" that argue parity measures won't work.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Most of the halves, ME NOT INCLUDED, have major tallent in this class. Just drove an 8 hr enduro in upper mid pack car with 4/32 toyos (we all know a 4/32 toyo is not a fast tire) on it and turned personal best laps, yes i had to drive it 10/10ths to do that. While I am not a threat for the 2013 national title in SCCA, I think most recognize what all efforts I have put into this to get from DFL in 2010 when I started to being a threat for top 10 at a dbl nat. at most tracks. I do have the confidence to say, if we all have exactly the same car, and we take turns running 10 lap stints in exactly the same track conditions I will still be a threat to be top 10 at most any track. And great drivers like Charbs, and Drago will beat me 9.5 times out of 10 even in my car. Much is made over the engine, and I have even been known to blame my engine for not keeping pace, probably blamed that all of my rookie season, and a few times since. But I put my data up against some of the best Drago, and Steyn come to mind. They are consistently faster everywhere on the track with almost identicle equipment. Parity is a fairy tale... It can be debated, even considered, just never achieved. Can we let Landy get back to finding a solution to Engine parity?

[LarryKing]

Not one word about my exhaust/intake suggestion?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I dont care what exhaust we use. I already have a stock intake maybe we should put my stock airbox on your car and see if it gives more hp lol. How about this suggestion, pick one model car, then partiy is much easier achieved, but all the halves will still have advantage, as they will test more, and tweek more and flat out buy more engines and most can afford etc.

So what your saying if I hear you correctly is If the 99 run stock pipes and air box, and the 1.6 does the same parity will be achieved?

As jim alluded to in another post it would be best if we picked one model 1999-2000 and got rid of the rest but we all knwo that wont fly and would absolutly murder the class. If the grass is really greener on the other side of the fence, as many like to say is with new sm5 what is keeping the masses from rushing off to build one of those? I only know of one guy who I race with that wants to build one. I have no intentions of racing anything other than SM and I think by the time SM has run its course I will be on to a new endevour completley and will leave racign behind for new challenges in life.

This thread is not getting much in the way of suggestions so far, its my last post as I have No Real Ideas how to achieve parity. I am one that thinks things are very good currently under our new rules, that reach through 2014 season. Thank god we dont have to wonder what RP, or wieght we will have to change to, and it seems tires are set for the next couple years even though its not the same tire.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

[Bench Racer]

Not one word about my exhaust/intake suggestion?

It's always interesting that real parity comments go un-noticed or shall we say un-spoken about. This un-spoken stuff is like when we were talking about freeing up some torque for the 1.6 at Road America. Please note I didn't say generating more torque.

CaveMan, did you read (we all learn someplace) about exhausts back when the Gorilla was playing with your best friends? There was nothing OEM about the exhausts DDG implemented for the Gorilla. There were many comments by others about the pluses and minuses of exhaust relative to torque. Kind of like exhausts on a Kart.

[Forrest Landy]

I dont think buying sealed engines from mazda is a good idea. The spec miata crowd would single handedly fund mazda's return to le mans. All I am suggesting is that we inspect our engines for legality and get that out of the way at the begging of the season for instead of after the final race of the season when accusations have been thrown around all year. of course this is still not the most feisable idea as adding an engine inspection to annual tech is expensive and time consuming. I dont think this would change the status quo except it would force us slow guys to focus on braking later, hitting our apexes, and getting on the power sooner and not whining about how we dont have a fast engine. I get that this is beating a dead horse sorry about that. Again I am a rookie still so all of this is from a rookies perspective on SM and I know there is a long political history on this topic.

[LarryKing]

I dont care what exhaust we use.

Super! Then you're OK with everyone using the same exhaust.

As jim alluded to in another post it would be best if we picked one model 1999-2000 and got rid of the rest

Yes, very disconcerting coming from one of the decision makers for this class. Why not 1990-93 and get rid of the rest?

I have No Real Ideas

And I have no comment.


From Speedwell's SM5 post:

The Spec-Like Miata-Like racing class "product" needs to cater to people below the 1% ... the same people that got geeked out about taking homebuilt 1.6s to the track for $10K. Eliminate EVERY unnecessary cost-creep item with militance. Often that means "spec", but sometimes it means "open".

I'm one of those geeks who saw SM go from 4 entries in the GreatLakes to 30-40 entries seemingly overnight.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

And I have no comment.

[bigsmittyJAS]

I would think that the logisitcs and cost of inspecting and sealing every engine would prohibit this as a real solution. Last I checked, SM was a pretty large class. I think that the majority of guys running regional events are out there to have a good time and have neither the time nor the money to run at the front (myself included). I agree that the rules as they stand are pretty fair. Those who choose to cheat will always find a way to do it.

[MPR22]

Sealed is not practical at this point. Who does the sealing, the pro engine builders? Or do you suggest we all buy crate motors and pray we get a good one. That wouldn't fly either because the crowd that wants a car to cost 10k and no more would never spend the money on a new crate motor, that would be like 1/3 the cost of the car. The same folks want to use a tire that lasts forever and grips like a sticker Hoosier. I am all for having cheaper everything, I want to spend much less than I do. The wealthier individuals will spend money finding the absolute best of everything...sealed engine, tranny, diff, tires...

Seriously find me a class that has as much parity between iterations of cars. MX-5 Cup is as close as I have seen in a US professional series and their race weekend costs are ridiculous compared to SM. Our parity is much more affordable and I would argue more similar.

Similar Miata is what we have and it is great. Too much complaining makes this class look like the costs are over the top and full of "cheaters". I remeber three years ago before I built my 1st car, I was shocked by the comments about the need and cost of a pro motor, and the average cost per weekend. It almost ran me off before I got started, sure glad it didn't.

To date I have never run a "pro-motor". My engine combinations have been a 78k stock bottom end with used 2010 Rossini head I bought off of Blake. The other engine was a homebuilt bottom end and a 2012 Gilfus head. I did borrow an engine that Chris Haldeman built and used for a season when I smoked the rings on my Gilfus/Home built engine (ran too lean). All of the engines dynoed within +/-2.5 HP of each other.

I spent less than the cost of 1 pro motor on 2 complete engines with pro heads. I finished a high of 2nd and a low of 10th in races started and finished. You don't have to have a $35,000 car to compete in this class. Could I have done better if I spent more, maybe. Averaging top 5 in one of the most competitive classes in one of the most competitive divisions seems like the guys making rules have done a pretty good job to me. They produced a rule set that I can follow, I can chose to do the work myself or have a pro shop produce the engine and finish within the top 5 on a regular basis. That's pretty good parity if you ask me.

My 1.6 is plenty fast but does not suit my driving style as well. I can turn laps at MSRH within .25 seconds of my 99 and it has a true home brew bottom end and head. I suspect if I spent more time in the 1.6 I could go as fast in it, just not consistently. The car is an absolute blast to drive, much more fun than the 99.

My point is the cars are as equal as they have ever been. The rule set allows for a great class that anyone with a "reasonable budget" can compete.

[LarryKing]

I guess we can stop the debate because everything is peachy.

[Jim Drago]

Not one word about my exhaust/intake suggestion?

OK, I will get on that.. "
Please add factory air cleaner back to 90-93 Miata like every other Miata in the class "

[Mike Asselta]

Engine claim rule baby...$4000 or highest bidder and you take it.

[Mike Asselta]

...and MPR, I'm not taking yours....