30 replies to this topic

[Terry Hanushek]

Brandon

I wish we had coherent rules across the entire NE (SCCA & NASA combined) but we don't.
Apart from the NASA rules disallowing the NA1.8 I'd have to say theirs would be a better basis for SCCA's "NEDIV SSM Rules" ultimately.
I can dream, can't I?

The SSM Technical Specifications are identical in the Northeast Division and are unchanged for 2011. Admittedly, WDCR has added the administrative procedures for their Summit Point events which make interchange a bit difficult but the car prep should be the same.

WDCR: http://www.wdcr-scca...abid=73&mid=535

NEDiv: http://www.nescca.co...SMTechSpecs.pdf

AFAIK these rules apply to MARRS, NARRC, NERRC, NYSRRC and NJRRS races. All races at NJMP use the NEDiv specifications above.

Terry

[LeahEpting]

Over a few parts that aren't going to make you much faster? What I hear is "waaaaaaaaah, I can't compete even if I have nearly the same same car but not quite, waaaaaaaaah."

Pffft, my competitiveness (or lack thereof) has much less to do with the car than the driver. I have no illusions about that. But I see no reason to hand over any further advantages and sign up for a greater ass-kicking than what I'm already getting in MARRS.

That said, if AJ's point that the reality is MARRS legal SSM cars regardless of what is "allowed" is true, then that's worth considering. It's just that I haven't observed much restraint from anyone racing Miata's near the front of any pack, so I don't really expect it in NASA any more than anywhere else. And don't pretend that the changes make no difference. If they didn't, why spec them? Racers and car builders don't come up with these ideas to change things out of the blue. They come up with them to go faster. I would.

Anyway, NASA still holds one very important draw for me: they go to VIR a lot. Pro: More time, especially at VIR Con: More money in fees, even if the ruleset turns out to be stable. So we'll see.

Personally, I'd love to see more standardized rules across the NE and SE divisions too, mostly because I'm on that border between the two.

[Connie 62]

Sorry to anyone offended by my actions or tone.

WDC and the other regions of NEDiv have all compromised slightly to publish a standardized set of specifications for SSM. If you comply, you can race in any race series in NEDiv.

WDC however, does have a set of Administrative Rules which apply mostly to the sealing process. The drivers in WDC voted to have the sealing mandatory, and as a result we have some of the best racing in the country.

I started working with NASA to hopefully extend this consistent set of rules to all of NASA. NASA National wanted to eliminate the sealing process, and since NASA Mid-Atlantic has a dyno at every event I didn't see that as a problem. I lobbied to eliminate the 99+ shock hats, but lost that argument. They blindsided me with the fuel pressure regulator and the steering rack shims. Totally contrary to the SSM philosophy. However, we have a great group of competitors in NASA Mid-Atlantic and we have a gentlemen's agreement to not use any of those modifications. Also the 106 HP limit in NASA makes a WDC SCCA sealed car equally competitive, and I'm sure of that since I've had my SSM on the NASA dyno many times.

The result is that we have all of SCCA NEDiv and NASA Mid-Atlantic with a set of SSM rules that allow easy cross-over with no competitive disadvantages. Equalizing two different cars (90-93 and 94-97) is next to impossible. In WDC during the sealing process for a 1.8L car we check HP (there is no limit but we know what to expect) and we check the A/F ratio to insure that no tampering has been done. A 1.8L car is at a slight disadvantage due to minimum weight, especially in longer races. 1.8L cars have finished in the top 5 at Summit Point, but none has ever won a race. And yes, I wish the 1.8L was not in the ruleset, but no, I will not attempt to eliminate the car as long as anyone chooses to compete with it.

The WDC SCCA MARRS SSM program has one of the highest car counts of any class in the nation. You are all welcome to come participate in some of the best racing anywhere. If you get hooked however, and want to continue coming back, we require that you follow our Administrative Rules and be sealed, thus insuring that your car does not have a competitive advantage within the group.

Both WDC MARRS and NASA Mid-Atlantic are great places to race. I plan on racing with both this season.

Jim Thill
#11 SSM

[Weekend Warrior]

Heck I might throw a Mazdaspeed exhaust and airbox on my car and race SSM now with NASA......

[Brandon]

Sorry to anyone offended by my actions or tone.

WDC and the other regions of NEDiv have all compromised slightly to publish a standardized set of specifications for SSM. If you comply, you can race in any race series in NEDiv.

WDC however, does have a set of Administrative Rules which apply mostly to the sealing process. The drivers in WDC voted to have the sealing mandatory, and as a result we have some of the best racing in the country.

I started working with NASA to hopefully extend this consistent set of rules to all of NASA. NASA National wanted to eliminate the sealing process, and since NASA Mid-Atlantic has a dyno at every event I didn't see that as a problem. I lobbied to eliminate the 99+ shock hats, but lost that argument. They blindsided me with the fuel pressure regulator and the steering rack shims. Totally contrary to the SSM philosophy. However, we have a great group of competitors in NASA Mid-Atlantic and we have a gentlemen's agreement to not use any of those modifications. Also the 106 HP limit in NASA makes a WDC SCCA sealed car equally competitive, and I'm sure of that since I've had my SSM on the NASA dyno many times.

The result is that we have all of SCCA NEDiv and NASA Mid-Atlantic with a set of SSM rules that allow easy cross-over with no competitive disadvantages. Equalizing two different cars (90-93 and 94-97) is next to impossible. In WDC during the sealing process for a 1.8L car we check HP (there is no limit but we know what to expect) and we check the A/F ratio to insure that no tampering has been done. A 1.8L car is at a slight disadvantage due to minimum weight, especially in longer races. 1.8L cars have finished in the top 5 at Summit Point, but none has ever won a race. And yes, I wish the 1.8L was not in the ruleset, but no, I will not attempt to eliminate the car as long as anyone chooses to compete with it.

The WDC SCCA MARRS SSM program has one of the highest car counts of any class in the nation. You are all welcome to come participate in some of the best racing anywhere. If you get hooked however, and want to continue coming back, we require that you follow our Administrative Rules and be sealed, thus insuring that your car does not have a competitive advantage within the group.

Both WDC MARRS and NASA Mid-Atlantic are great places to race. I plan on racing with both this season.

Jim Thill
#11 SSM

Thank you Jim for a cordial reply. I went back and re-read what I wrote and realized I came off rather combative. Sorry for that.

Not to beat a dead horse (but here goes): what specifically is it about the shock hats & R-pack tie rod ends + shims that you feel is anathema to the class (SSM)? I can understand the desire to keep costs down by disallowing expensive experimentation ($200 spark plug wires anyone?) but both of these mods I don't think fall outside of your ideal for the class.

Someone else remarked about having an on-track incident causing you to come into inpound post-race illegal (ride height I believe was the measurement/tech item) so how can specifying maximum negative camber not be considered a similar rule?

Or is it a case of the shock hats ('99s or FC's) allowing a lower ride height, then the R-pack tie rods are needed to get steering angles right, and now with the lower ride height you can run more negative camber?

This may be my naiveté coming out (due to my lack of actual racing experience) but I don't see keep these mods out of SSM as being beneficial to the class as a whole. If you allow these two/three mods into SSM you have a greater chance of those currently running SM to easily play in this class (exhaust & intake swap).

*shrug*

This is where I see opportunity for more participants provided a slightly greater allowance exists and how that cannot be good for the class I don't know...

Look forward to your thoughts/reply.

Thanks,
Brandon

[Connie 62]

I guess it all comes down to rules creep. The optimum situation is to be able to load your car on the trailer after the last race of the season, and pull it out at the beginning of the next, and have it still competitive and legal.

Each of the changes by themselves is not bad, but the continual addition of "performance" enhancing mods raises the cost of competing.

But here is where the rubber meets the road. Mandatory sealing. The sealing process at a specified HP kills the incentive for expensive R&D. The SSM engines can be 100K street engines or perhaps an untouched crate engine. And those motors can win. Try that in SM.

And possibly the most controversial aspect of the WDC philosophy...we don't want crossover from SM. Just putting a stock intake and MazdaSpeed exhaust on your SM doesn't make it an SSM. Most of the SM motors are clearly illegal in SSM. Remember SCCA SSM is based on Showroom Stock, and SS doesn't allow motor modifications. Yeah, I know it's happening in National Showroom Stock classes, but put that rule on top of engine sealing with a HP limitation and now you truly have contained the costs. Every year the top SM cars have more HP, more costly development, more expensive engines, and more expensive racing. (Notice I didn't include "more fun")

The 106HP limit in NASA could accomplish the same thing if rigorously enforced. But now NASA has started down the slippery slope of rules creep. Their philosophy is to give the old, no longer competitive SM cars a place to race. But their rules changes this year are the first step in killing the class.

Our policy in WDC SSM is continuously criticized, but remember, we have huge fields and great racing. We must be doing something right.

[Connie 62]

Heck I might throw a Mazdaspeed exhaust and airbox on my car and race SSM now with NASA......

Now that your engine has only 30PSI commpression per cylinder, we might be able to get it down to 106HP.

[Weekend Warrior]

Alas, yes.....thanks to my nephew who wanted to fry some eggs on the valve cover wilst racing down the straight.....

[Scottie]

Alas, yes.....thanks to my nephew who wanted to fry some eggs on the valve cover wilst racing down the straight.....

LOL I spoke to him while you guys were at the shop digging up another head. How did he do on Sunday? I was only there on Saturday.

[Weekend Warrior]

He didn't.....

[Scottie]

Oh... Sorry.