53 replies to this topic

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

Figured this video may cause some discussion and arguing...

 

This is an incar from last weekends Rational at WIllow Springs.   Driver is Joey Jordan (my kid)  I am honestly mixed on this one, he could of showed more patience, but like the aggressiveness.  It also shows what happens when Spec Miata drivers are let loose in the world.

 

In this run group were: IT/RS/STU/STL/T3-4/HP/FP/GTL     The BMW was an STU car, there was a GTlite and FP car just behind Joey and Clement Lee.

 

I do believe running in a multiple car format class like this is great training, you have to learn how to deal with different cars with different strengths and weaknesses.

 

Flame away!

 

 

 

[Blake Thompson]

I dunno if I'm going to make it to the end, the way he's working the wheel is going to give me a nervous breakdown.  Is the track that bad?

 

I see your boy working the bmw pretty hard, he's obviously quicker and it sure is frustrating when they just walk you on a straight.

 

A little throttle control would go a long way to clean up this lap and make it a much easier pass.  I sense the steering inputs contributing to his troubles too.

 

I believe the BMW made a pretty obvious purchase on that inside line.  Another BMW would not have made that attempt and a spec probably shouldn't have.  Would I have done it?  Probably, but I would have entered with a greater speed differential and ate the loss on my exit.  I would have wanted to be door to door with him before the BMW needed to start turning in for his apex.  I think SCCA rules say that you just need a bumper on the car, but you're well in a blind spot for that BMW - especially with a small and quiet car. 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

after racing with Joey, IMO he is not an overy aggressive driver, he drives 10 years older than he is...

 

I often wonder if BMW's other than Spec E30's come equiped with mirrors???

 

The BMW seemed bothered by the few bumps to the rear bumper, I think eventually he would have just let Joey by in a couple more laps.  I personally dont see anything wrong with the move made and had the BMW not put Joey in the dirt no contact would evr have been made. 

 

One final thought... A wise racer has told me on more than one occasion no matter if your right or wrong, contact is still contact, so If your not passing for the lead or a podium  in the last couple laps then dont take a risk of getting the car beat up. 

 

that my 1/2 cent

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

One final thought... A wise racer has told me on more than one occasion no matter if your right or wrong, contact is still contact, so If your not passing for the lead or a podium  in the last couple laps then dont take a risk of getting the car beat up. 

 

Wise advise....

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

A little throttle control would go a long way to clean up this lap and make it a much easier pass.  I sense the steering inputs contributing to his troubles too.

 

I will let him know your opinions, he is always looking to go faster...

 

 

I dunno if I'm going to make it to the end, the way he's working the wheel is going to give me a nervous breakdown.  Is the track that bad?

 

The track is not bad, just him working hard I guess,   He ran up front in both spec miata and STL in a 1.6 so any ideas to gain a tenth will be helpful.

[Alberto]

Nice driving.  the BMW left a huge Miata sized hole at the inside.  Did he expect your son to not fill it?  Very odd that he decided to turn in on your son in the Miata.

 

 

That track looks bumpy.  He was working that wheel pretty hard.  Not sure if track surface was the reason for that.  Back when I used to race karts, each mid-turn wheel correction was worth a tenth.  Not sure how/if that applies to SM.

[Joey Jordan]

One final thought... A wise racer has told me on more than one occasion no matter if your right or wrong, contact is still contact, so If your not passing for the lead or a podium  in the last couple laps then dont take a risk of getting the car beat up. 

 

After looking back on it thats exactly what I should have done.

 

 

At the time Clement Lee was right on my bumper so I thought if I could some how get the BMW between me and Clement  I might be able to get a gap on him.  I knew the pass was sort of risky but thats the only way I could get around him.  I was thinking he would see me going for the pass and give me some room but it seems pretty obvious that he had no idea I was there.  If you look at the previous laps that the same exact line he would take if nobody was trying to pass him. 

 

Next time I will be more patient!!

[Brian Linn]

Having raced at Willow Springs in under-powered, good handling cars, I feel Joey's pain.  The track has such long straights, it's difficult to make a pass stick when the other car has more power.  Turn 2 (where the incident happened) is the place to make the attempt so that you can use the better handling in T-3 thru T-5 to pull a gap before the back straight.  

 

To me, it's a racing incident.  At that point of T-2, your climbing and scrubbing speed and the car is not as "loaded" as it is on the entry.  I'm typically letting the car track out to be free rather than worrying too much about that apex.  I think the BMW, if he knew the car was there, could have given some room and both could have gotten thru the corner without any issues.  My $.02

 

As far as the track is concerned, it was repaved recently.  

[EPrill]

Always tough to assign blame. I spent a lot of time in World Challenge race control for years as an extra set of eyes for the Chief Steward. My theory was that every car has a pivot point. If contact results in the front car getting turned, the rear car wasn't far enough along. If the front car just gets moved over, then the rear car was far enough along that they couldn't avoid the contact. This assumes the rear, or passing car, is down at the apex.

 

That's not to assign blame--it's just to say who had the last opportunity to avoid the contact.

 

So in this case, I would say that the BMW had the last opportunity to avoid the contact. Whether there's any penalty or blame depends on how strict the officials are calling the game.

[Joey Jordan]

I dunno if I'm going to make it to the end, the way he's working the wheel is going to give me a nervous breakdown.  Is the track that bad?

 

Loose is fast!

 

Also I was on BFG R1-S and they are really fast but the con is you always feel like your out of control

Those tires are the only reason I can compete with the 99's in STL with an intake put in and restrictor taken out!

[Rob Burgoon]

Having raced at Willow Springs in under-powered, good handling cars, I feel Joey's pain.  The track has such long straights, it's difficult to make a pass stick when the other car has more power.  Turn 2 (where the incident happened) is the place to make the attempt so that you can use the better handling in T-3 thru T-5 to pull a gap before the back straight.  

 

To me, it's a racing incident.  At that point of T-2, your climbing and scrubbing speed and the car is not as "loaded" as it is on the entry.  I'm typically letting the car track out to be free rather than worrying too much about that apex.  I think the BMW, if he knew the car was there, could have given some room and both could have gotten thru the corner without any issues.  My $.02

 

As far as the track is concerned, it was repaved recently.  

 

 

Resealed, not repaved.  All the old bumps are still there.  My laps probably have even more hand movement.  I'll post race video in a couple days.

 

From where I sit Joey dropped a wheel and then lost it.  He should crowd the BMW more and risk side to side contact before dropping a wheel and ensuring it in this case.  The BMW driver isn't that good.  Crowd him a little and you can scare him into giving more room.

 

Two in the dirt *might* work there, but should be tested first.  Joey hit a hole so it wasn't really a "two in the dirt" scenario.

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

Always tough to assign blame. I spent a lot of time in World Challenge race control for years as an extra set of eyes for the Chief Steward. My theory was that every car has a pivot point. If contact results in the front car getting turned, the rear car wasn't far enough along. If the front car just gets moved over, then the rear car was far enough along that they couldn't avoid the contact. This assumes the rear, or passing car, is down at the apex.

 

That's not to assign blame--it's just to say who had the last opportunity to avoid the contact.

 

So in this case, I would say that the BMW had the last opportunity to avoid the contact. Whether there's any penalty or blame depends on how strict the officials are calling the game.

 

Thanks for your thoughts Eric,  I think in Pro Racing this would not have been an issue, in club racing a totally different scenario,  we respect the stewards decision, even if it's different than ours ,we take the penalty and move on just interesting to hear everyone's thoughts.. critiques, criticisms etc.  May help someone else in a similar vein in the future.

[FTodaro]

Loose is fast!

Too loose,  is slow also.

 

I have never driven that track but even in a relatively straight line you seam to be fighting the wheel. Again, I am not an authority as I have never driven the track. I have friends who have excessive hand movements, in my view. Its part style. i am ready to catch the car if need be and in some corners I turn in aggressively to get the car to rotate but those moves are trying to unload the car and rotate. 

 

I have learned the hard way that SCCA and NASA have different rules regarding what is fair play. In NASA once you get your front tire to the other drivers door, its your line and your apex the car being overtaken has to give way even if it means two in the grass or going off line.

 

SCCA is a little different you have to give racing room, and you have to keep off of your competitor. you would need to see the view from both cars to make a determination on that. In general my view is that the person making the pass must do so without contact. I will add that the person being passed should not block. I really cannot say from the vid that the BMW was putting a block move there but i really do not know.

 

As Kyle said, right or wrong when you have contact that is going to slow you down or put you out.

 

over the years my attitude is that i would rather live to fight another day, or in racing wait till i get a better run on them.

 

[Caveman-kwebb99]

"I have learned the hard way that SCCA and NASA have different rules regarding what is fair play. In NASA once you get your front tire to the other drivers door, its your line and your apex the car being overtaken has to give way even if it means two in the grass or going off line."

 

 

No actually Frank you are backwards, the overtaking driver is the one responsible for going in the dirt to make a pass, the driver being overtaken only needs to give you 3/4 of a car which means it is your respnsiblility as over taking driver to go off road if you must to make the pass without contact.  One of my biggest points of contention with NASA.

 

Most at the front dont ever put someone in the grass, they realize their race is at risk by doing so, it is usually those mid pack and back that read that rule and apply it litteraly...  when I startd racing in 2010 I witnessed this more than a few times, and had the rule qouted to me by those that felt it nessesary to drive you off into the dirt. In 2011 when I got the front nobody there has ever put me into the grass on purpose... 

[Johnny D]

I had the same thing with a pretty white M5 at Sonoma during an enduro.

I started to make the pass on him coming off and then he would pull me on the straights.

You could see with his driving he was getting pissed that a little miata was doing this.

Then I changed things up. He didn't like my continued bump drafting technique

I can only assume he radioed in saying WTF and he got the reply, he's not in your class, let him go.

J~

[James York]

Loose is fast!

 

Also I was on BFG R1-S and they are really fast but the con is you always feel like your out of control

Those tires are the only reason I can compete with the 99's in STL with an intake put in and restrictor taken out!

 

99's are not allowed to pull their restrictor plate and run STL, unless they then comply to 100% of the STL rules (weight formula etc).  They are supposed to run in SM trim exactly....

 

And by the way, BMW's fault.  He is racing with a miata, what does he expect?  SM's pass everywhere.

[Tyler Dahl]

 

This is my out of class mishap a couple years ago, right around the 50 second mark.

 

I was leading overall and as we came up to lap him I thought he was giving us room and then came down. It looks alot slower in the video and I could of slammed on my brakes to avoid. The officals didn't say anything to me but I talked to him in impound as soon as he pulled in and apologized.

[Rob Burgoon]

I don't always bump slower traffic, but when I do, I mat the gas to make sure I finish it.  

[DrDomm]

The BMW/Miata incident took so long to develop, I would have assumed the BMW was conceding the corner.  He had every opportunity to avoid that contact...just didn't pay attention.  His bad.

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

99's are not allowed to pull their restrictor plate and run STL, unless they then comply to 100% of the STL rules (weight formula etc).  They are supposed to run in SM trim exactly....

 

 

 

Not the way it has been around here, some guys pull the restrictors, add an intake and run as an ITA or ITS car. We are a 1.6 so we just run it as a Spec Miata with different tires.