53 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

Not the way it has been around here, some guys pull the restrictors, add an intake and run as an ITA or ITS car. We are a 1.6 so we just run it as a Spec Miata with different tires.

 

 

I get this a lot!!  

Miatas can run in STL in the following configurations..

 

Completely in SM trim and weight and run just like in SM.. For a 99, that is with plate and 2400 lbs..

STL trim which is 2560 and meet the STL rules

IT trim.. In IT trim the cars MUST be completely legal in IT, so for a 99 miata that is 2385 and NO power or depowered steering racks.. Must be true MANUAL or you are non compliant for the class and most IT guys know this.  Also 90/93 Miatas CA NOT run Torsen swaps and be legal in IT..

 

So if you see a 99 Up miata in STL it better have a plate and be 2400 lbs.. or have a manual steering gear which is about $600 from Mazda. 

[Rob Burgoon]

The BMW/Miata incident took so long to develop, I would have assumed the BMW was conceding the corner.  He had every opportunity to avoid that contact...just didn't pay attention.  His bad.

One thing about that corner, it's over 180* and goes dramatically uphill.  A common line for heavy cars is to hang out midtrack and then take an apex at the end.

 

It's a very screwy and very wonderful track.

 

None of these lines are the SM line.

[Danny Steyn]

I get this a lot!!  

Miatas can run in STL in the following configurations..

 

Completely in SM trim and weight and run just like in SM.. For a 99, that is with plate and 2400 lbs..

STL trim which is 2560 and meet the STL rules

IT trim.. In IT trim the cars MUST be completely legal in IT, so for a 99 miata that is 2385 and NO power or depowered steering racks.. Must be true MANUAL or you are non compliant for the class and most IT guys know this.  Also 90/93 Miatas CA NOT run Torsen swaps and be legal in IT..

 

So if you see a 99 Up miata in STL it better have a plate and be 2400 lbs.. or have a manual steering gear which is about $600 from Mazda. 

 

 

Jim - thanks for clearing this up - there has been a lot of confusion regarding this. 

[CruzanTom]

I get this a lot!!  

Miatas can run in STL in the following configurations..

 

Completely in SM trim and weight and run just like in SM.. For a 99, that is with plate and 2400 lbs..

STL trim which is 2560 and meet the STL rules

IT trim.. In IT trim the cars MUST be completely legal in IT, so for a 99 miata that is 2385 and NO power or depowered steering racks.. Must be true MANUAL or you are non compliant for the class and most IT guys know this.  Also 90/93 Miatas CA NOT run Torsen swaps and be legal in IT..

 

So if you see a 99 Up miata in STL it better have a plate and be 2400 lbs.. or have a manual steering gear which is about $600 from Mazda. 

 

This is correct. I just went over these rules with the Tech Inspector at Roebling BEFORE the STL race so we would all be compliant. There is more than one way to skin an STL cat. Just pulling the plate and running under ITS rules or running SM puts a Miata at a disadvantage to a fully prepped STL car; however, at Roebling the driving skills of Steyn and Tisseront allowed them to leave a prepped STL car far behind.

[KW78]

I actually agree that hitting the pothole that started the inside curbing jumped the miata into the BMW.  It lost grip and had moved a tire width or two.  I didn't think the BMW was closing the door.  It was good close racing.  Was there penalties from the stewards or a protest?

 

 

 

99's are not allowed to pull their restrictor plate and run STL, unless they then comply to 100% of the STL rules (weight formula etc).  They are supposed to run in SM trim exactly....

 

And by the way, BMW's fault.  He is racing with a miata, what does he expect?  SM's pass everywhere.

 

That's true if you claim SM as your root class.    But, everything done to a SM is legal in IT (s or a) so if you claim an IT class you can pull restrictor and change air box.  The only caveat is you have to make IT weight, which for the 94-97 went to 2460.  (Where the hell did that come from btw?? )  The 99's are at 2375 in ITS.

 

 

EDIT:  Wow answer the phone a few times and there are 3 more posts before I hit save... hmm... 

[Ron Alan]

What was the Stewards official reasoning? Based on my interpretation of SCCA rules the BMW didn't leave you room...tried to take his normal line but you were there. You may have dropped a wheel and got loose but only because you had to. NASA you would be at fault.

Just my   which isn't worth a nickel usually!

[KW78]

I get this a lot!!  

Miatas can run in STL in the following configurations..

 

Completely in SM trim and weight and run just like in SM.. For a 99, that is with plate and 2400 lbs..

STL trim which is 2560 and meet the STL rules

IT trim.. In IT trim the cars MUST be completely legal in IT, so for a 99 miata that is 2385 and NO power or depowered steering racks.. Must be true MANUAL or you are non compliant for the class and most IT guys know this.  Also 90/93 Miatas CA NOT run Torsen swaps and be legal in IT..

 

So if you see a 99 Up miata in STL it better have a plate and be 2400 lbs.. or have a manual steering gear which is about $600 from Mazda. 

 

Hey Jim,
 

I had to re-read the 90/93 diff comment.  Any LSD is legal, (and final drive) but yes the housing swap would be updating/backdating between spec lines. 

 

However, this should be in a rules cleanup, as so many things are, under the category of more reliability without performance gain.

 

I disagree on the power steering racks.  I think it is allowed in the rules as written.

 

my .02 

 

Kyle

[DrDomm]

I think the STL discussion is a good one, and maybe should be moved to the main forum under its own thread. 

[Rob Burgoon]

Hey Jim,
 

I had to re-read the 90/93 diff comment.  Any LSD is legal, (and final drive) but yes the housing swap would be updating/backdating between spec lines. 

 

However, this should be in a rules cleanup, as so many things are, under the category of more reliability without performance gain.

 

I disagree on the power steering racks.  I think it is allowed in the rules as written.

 

my .02 

 

Kyle

 

 

I think the general attitude in the IT community is that SM can go f* itself with a rusty spoon, so I wouldn't count on any reliability rule changes.

[Ron Alan]

There's an IT community?

[Joey Jordan]

What was the Stewards official reasoning?]

The guy in the BMW protested me and I appealed it and lost probably cause the other guy is a lawyer and I'm just a 19 year old punk kid What they told me was that it is the passer's job to make sure they have a safe pass and the fact that I had to drop a wheel means it was an unsafe pass. I told them when I initially made the pass I wasn't planning on going off track I was forced off track.... They didn't see it that way.

[James York]

I actually agree that hitting the pothole that started the inside curbing jumped the miata into the BMW.  It lost grip and had moved a tire width or two.  I didn't think the BMW was closing the door.  It was good close racing.  Was there penalties from the stewards or a protest?

 

 

 

 

That's true if you claim SM as your root class.    But, everything done to a SM is legal in IT (s or a) so if you claim an IT class you can pull restrictor and change air box.  The only caveat is you have to make IT weight, which for the 94-97 went to 2460.  (Where the hell did that come from btw?? )  The 99's are at 2375 in ITS.

 

 

EDIT:  Wow answer the phone a few times and there are 3 more posts before I hit save... hmm... 

 

I was not saying anything about any IT rules.  I don't know them at all.

 

I was making a comment based on the post I quoted which said 99's were pulling the restrictor, changing the intake and running STL.  I only clarified if they due this they must be 100% compliant with the STL ruleset  (meaning NOT 2400#).  They can't just pull the restrictor and be SM trim and weight.  (As Jim clarified a few posts up)

[Jim Drago]

Hey Jim,
 

I had to re-read the 90/93 diff comment.  Any LSD is legal, (and final drive) but yes the housing swap would be updating/backdating between spec lines. 

 

However, this should be in a rules cleanup, as so many things are, under the category of more reliability without performance gain.

 

I disagree on the power steering racks.  I think it is allowed in the rules as written.

 

my .02 

 

Kyle

 

 

You can "think" it,  but it is not compliant  neither one the 1.8 diff in a 1.6, nor the power or depowered racks. IT is it's own animal, they like things they way they have  it and don't want SM cars coming into their sand box. If Sm cars come in, they want them to meet the rule.  While I may agree it 'should" be different, the class and committee do not want it different.   

[Jim Drago]

There's an IT community?

A very big and active one

[Jim Drago]

This is correct. I just went over these rules with the Tech Inspector at Roebling BEFORE the STL race so we would all be compliant. There is more than one way to skin an STL cat. Just pulling the plate and running under ITS rules or running SM puts a Miata at a disadvantage to a fully prepped STL car; however, at Roebling the driving skills of Steyn and Tisseront allowed them to leave a prepped STL car far behind.

 

Part of the issue with other classes such as STL and IT is that a SM should not be competitive in those respective classes in any fashion, unfortunately for them, some of the best drivers in the SCCA race in SM. So when some of the top SM drivers race in these classes they trend to do well and that tends not to sit well with many other out of class drivers.. The ST classes were meant to be all inclusive.  while IT and SM cars are allowed to run in ST,  THEY WERE NEVER MEANT TO BE COMPETITIVE and are not competitive with a real STL car, they were just included to have a place to run in National weekends and for double dippers.

[FTodaro]

"I have learned the hard way that SCCA and NASA have different rules regarding what is fair play. In NASA once you get your front tire to the other drivers door, its your line and your apex the car being overtaken has to give way even if it means two in the grass or going off line."


No actually Frank you are backwards, the overtaking driver is the one responsible for going in the dirt to make a pass, the driver being overtaken only needs to give you 3/4 of a car which means it is your respnsiblility as over taking driver to go off road if you must to make the pass without contact. One of my biggest points of contention with NASA.

Most at the front dont ever put someone in the grass, they realize their race is at risk by doing so, it is usually those mid pack and back that read that rule and apply it litteraly... when I startd racing in 2010 I witnessed this more than a few times, and had the rule qouted to me by those that felt it nessesary to drive you off into the dirt. In 2011 when I got the front nobody there has ever put me into the grass on purpose...

I disagree once the overtaking car gets his wheels yo your door, he has the line and at that point can put you in the grass that is how I got DQed two years ago

It is a question of timing and how they apply the rule. In my incident we both cleared turn 7 at mid o as we are approaching madness, car overtaking me on the outside of a left hand turn gets his wheels to my passenger door and he moves over on me, so we hit, but I am blamed for not going to the grass . I am only entitled to 3/4 of the track. So in that situation, I was expected to go to the grass.

[Cy Peake]

I think the passing/following driver was at fault in both videos posted above.

 

First vid: you ran too far inside at the apex (maybe expecting the BMW to come down on you) and hit the hole, which launched your car into his door (he gave you racing room).  Your fault.

 

Second vid: you ran over the 944.  He had the line going into the corner (even if he was slower) and you moved him with your bumper and accelerator.  Your fault.

[Ron Alan]

The guy in the BMW protested me and I appealed it and lost probably cause the other guy is a lawyer and I'm just a 19 year old punk kid What they told me was that it is the passer's job to make sure they have a safe pass and the fact that I had to drop a wheel means it was an unsafe pass. I told them when I initially made the pass I wasn't planning on going off track I was forced off track.... They didn't see it that way.

 

This certainly is not how our local stewards have explained an overlap situation to me?? NASA interpretation imo

[fishguyaz]

The guy in the BMW protested me and I appealed it and lost probably cause the other guy is a lawyer and I'm just a 19 year old punk kid What they told me was that it is the passer's job to make sure they have a safe pass and the fact that I had to drop a wheel means it was an unsafe pass. I told them when I initially made the pass I wasn't planning on going off track I was forced off track.... They didn't see it that way.

Joey,

this is exactly how the rule has been explained to me, and how i would explain it to anyone who i was on track with in SCCA.

 

you made the pass, you forced the issue............its on you.

  my best advice for this, and many things in life, is to be Ok with losing a battle or 2, just make sure that you win the war.

 

the fact that you are new to the club, young, AND fast, is likely why you got protested; plus guys dont like having thier stuff damged for no reason. 

my input from racing this track in formula fords(never in a SM) is that you gave up a lot by not attempting to get into the draft from the BMW on the exit of 9. i think you might have been able to make the pass into turn 1 using his draft, and avoided this altogether. i would have tested that first.

 

FYI  there are fist sized rocks everywhere in the dirt at willow. when we go into the dirt in the formula car it gets really ugly; so a trip through the dirt at willow is not like other tracks and can do a lot of damage to your car. I saw a  FF guy go off right in the spot that the bmw did. in the pits he had a shoe box that he filled up with large rocks that went into his cooling ducts. his radiator was no longer a virgin.........

 

hope to meet you guys at the track sometime out in cali.

Josh

 

 

 

hindsight is 20/20.

[Blake Thompson]

After looking back on it thats exactly what I should have done.

 

 

At the time Clement Lee was right on my bumper so I thought if I could some how get the BMW between me and Clement  I might be able to get a gap on him.  I knew the pass was sort of risky but thats the only way I could get around him.  I was thinking he would see me going for the pass and give me some room but it seems pretty obvious that he had no idea I was there.  If you look at the previous laps that the same exact line he would take if nobody was trying to pass him. 

 

Next time I will be more patient!!

 

 

BMW's have a tendency to apex just like he did, I am not exactly sure what it is about the suspension characteristics, I just know it isn't something I would have done to a Schreyer or a Thiede (local 3 series guys) knowing that's how the BMW behaves.  They're also giant boxes compared to our cars and filled with blind spots.