18 replies to this topic

[Bruce Wilson]

After several conversations with drivers, owners and sponsors on the tire rule topic, we've come up with what I think will be a win-win for all.

 

I've heard that there are some folks that would like to attend some Oregon region races, yet are reluctant to buy a set of Hoosiers which is the current spec tire for Oregon region.  I totally understand the economics of their situation, but there are those who are adamantly against an open tire rule.  I completly understand that viewpoint as well, as we fought hard to make this a spec class and we have run a spec tire (with small exceptions for grandfathering) all along.

 

Our proposed solution:

We are planning to implement a tire rental program at reasonable cost to those who wish to run a race in Oregon region SCCA without incurring the cost of a new set of tires.  We are planning to gather a supply of used tires from our front runners and rental cars that still have a lot of life left in them.  We will make it even easier and mount them on rims.  We will then rent these out on a first come, first serve basis.  We still have some details to work out, e.g. price, waiting list, regulars who want to use the program, etc.

 

Just wanted to put this out for comment. 

 

Note: Please start another thread if you want to talk about the merits of open vs. spec tires.

 

thx,

 

-bw

[William Bonsell]

In all honesty, and I applaud the effort to attract some of us who do not currently run Hoosiers, this is just plain goofy. I am pretty sure anyone wanting to dip into a SCCA race is not a podium contender and could care less about points. So why don't you just let them run the tires they have. Just don't DQ them. You could limit the use of a non spec tire to no more than 2 events. Why should the top 4 or 5 guys care what tire someone behind them is running if the true goal here is to increase your Group 1 entries.

[Keith Novak]

Interesting idea.  I see more promise towards the end of the season...

 

Conference tire rules have trailed SCCA by one season for at least the last few years.  This year they allow 888s, RA1's, and Hoosiers since SCCA grandfathered in all the Toyos we had used in the past few years and the new national tire.  That means next year, presumably they will switch to Hoosiers only.  For people who want to use up what they have, they'll have an incentive to use their Toyos this year.

 

Once people are close to using up the old tires, there will be a choice between another set of Toyos they can't use next year, a new set of Hoosiers towards the end of the season (which might mean they'll just skip the last race(s) and wait to get new tires over the winter) but the option to rent tires might be attractive.  The end of the season does pose a wrinkle though in that we're getting out of the "dry" season so renting both wets and drys or rolling the dice might be less appealing depending on how the whole arangement works out.

[Sean - MiataCage]

Bill.  It's about the rules...... What about the non podium racers?  Is there finishing position any less important to them than the podium?  No, it is not....   The front runners (mine anyway) don't care what tire you run.... It's the mid pack guys and renters from other series testing out SM that are not going to agree with it.  Why should they be penalized for following the rules.  How would tech monitor this?  Why would we ask Tech to take on something outside the written rules?

 

You have to understand the frustration with some of your suggestions.  Open run groups and open tires.... It just looks like all you are trying to do is change the class to fit your specific needs.  The most popular class in all of SCCA no less.  Again... You have made it perfectly clear that all you want to do is run the Ridge and not have to buy tires.... I'm going to assume that is where the no more than (2) events comes from in your suggestion above.  Changing a sticker on the car in NASA and ICSCC is a much better option than changing rules that work.  If you don't care about the points I just don't get why you don't run in SCCA group 5.  This lets you run any tire you want and run against other cars, two things you have asked for in the past.

 

It seems fairly simple to me to get what you want:

 

ICSCC - Change the sticker to FIP or EIP and you still get to run with the SM's (assuming 2014 stays with the follow the SCCA rule)

NASA - Change the sticker to PTE and you still get to run with the SM's.

SCCA - Run group 5.  You will still get to run with some SM's and you will get the open run group you want.

 

Seems pretty simple to me.....

 

What's goofy about showing up at the race track and having someone bring you tires/wheels already cleaned, mounted up and balanced for a rental fee that is less than what you could own them for?  It's either about the money or it's not.  I/We are giving you a solution that is cheaper than owning and you call it goofy, when your earlier issues about the Hoosier were about expense.  

 

Sean

[Jim Venable]

Sounds slick to me. Nice forward thinking there fella's. 

 

JV

[Bruce Wilson]

Its a spec class Bill.  It's all been said before many times, check here and read the thousands of posts by searching spec tire, toyo or hoosier.  http://forum.specmia.../ultimatebb.cgi

 

Good points keith!

Thanks Jim, nice play on words there.  But they won't all be slicks

 

Hey not saying this is going to be anything spectacular, but it will be available soon if anyone wants to give it a try. 

 

Just trying to keep our members happy and make it easier to race (at the best track with the best SM drivers ) whenever possible!

[Terrell Garrett]

I didn't know there was any part of the dead horse left to beat.  

 

The rental idea is cool but more work than you should have to do to support the spec class.  I applaud your efforts.

[Randy Thieme]

Part of what it boils down to is there isn't an independent SM standard.  NASA, SCCA, and others are diverging.  Here's what needs to happen.  Pick two representatives from SCCA, two from NASA, and maybe some others from other large sanctioning bodies.  Have them meet once a year as an independent body to establish the SM rules.  Minimum weights, allowed modifications, spec tire, spec wheel size, suspension, etc, etc.  Then, if SCCA or NASA want to have an SM class they agree to subscribe to the independent SM standard.  This accomplishes two things:  it strengthens the "spec" nature of SM even more, and for those who want to race with more than one sanctioning body they can be confident their car will be legal anywhere they go.

[Sean - MiataCage]

Randy, please keep in mind that SCCA and NASA have a great working relationship and do talk and have standardized the rules between the organizations with the exception of tire. Thank you Jim and Jordan!

Conference follows SCCA on rules with a 1 year delay. In my mind the parity of cars is about as good as it can get and we have the big 2 on the same page with the rules minus tire. The diverging is what I'm most concerned about with some of the suggestions I'm not aware that (other than the tires) that the rules for all 3 organizations are different and appear to be in line with one another.

What differences do you see other than tire? Not SSM or SMT or SM whatever, but just SM.

Thanks.......Sean

[Kyle Keenan]

I see the tire rental being a great solution to get drivers on track, and the fact that they're pre-mounted and just need to be bolted to the car will be appealing to most racers.

 

Big thanks to Oregon SCCA, and Jim, Andrew, Bruce, and Sean for your efforts. I know it's not easy keeping us wannabie hair dresser's in line.

[Dani Ferrara]

As someone who can't afford a new set of tires, I think the tire rental program could be very helpful! Of course it depends on cost and the rain/dry situation, but I think it's a good idea.

[Randy Thieme]

Hi Sean,  Didn't want to open a can of worms on this but had to get that thought out of my head, and I do owe a response.  Perhaps tires are the only difference.  But whether or not that's a big difference is a matter of perspective.  In terms of one rule out of many it's small.  From the perspective of an expensive item to change to be compliant it's a little bit bigger.   The solution you've come up with - the tire rental option - is above and beyond the call of duty to give racers in our area more options.

[Bad Rusty]

Hello wonderful people of the northwest(pre emptive flattery). 1. I'm a mid pack guy who races in SFR a few times a year. 2. I wanted to keep the RA1. 3. I have told anyone that would listen that with Hoosiers it's one set per weekend (that means practice with really old, qualify with not so old, race with new). 4. I would love to know how "rentals" of old tires (with mount And balance and a "wheel" rental will work out??), pretty sure you can never be up front, all else being equal. 5. I don't know Sean from miata cage at all, but it seems like he's the only one being reasonable/rational here. No dog in the fight but I can assure you, someone paying to rent 6 session old SM6's for a full weekend is getting less than they paid for (without even knowing the price).

This is what happens when the wife is out of town and I have the Ipad all to myself!

[Sean - MiataCage]

Hello Bad Rusty,

 

Each track is a little different and depending on the pavement surface some tracks like old tires and some like new.  Fortunately we have a track that likes old tires.  I consistently hear people say that the Hoosiers wear out quickly.  This has not been my experience.  With proper curing, rotating, flipping, cycling etc a set of Hoosiers will go much farther than a lot of the internet rumor.  We have lots of experience with all of major SM tires in the 25 hour in the last 4 years as well as doing extensive testing at all of our local tracks.  As a reference point, a fast time for an SM at Portland is in the low 31's.  I am not a great driver and I have the STL track record in one of my rental cars with a 31.7 on 18 heat cycle Hoosier tires that ended up cording in the same race I ran the 31.7.  The fast SM time on the same day by a very quick driver was a 31.2.

 

The folks that would be renting the wheel tire combo are not looking to run up front per se, but just getting in the game so to speak.  We are trying to think outside the box and do something to be as inclusive as we can.  The complaint that I have been hearing has been about having to purchase a set of tires for a single race weekend, so this was a thought for a solution.

 

Thanks.... Sean

[Randy Thieme]

While I've argued for open tires in the past, this last Sunday I spoke to a front-runner who explained the view from the front.  If open tires were allowed then some front runners would begin fine-tuning the exact model of tire to run for each track.  PIR, PR, The Ridge, Thunderhill, etc.  To keep up would require multiple sets of tires just to find the best model for a specific track, plus the track time to thoroughly test and eliminate any anomalous results.  While an open tire rule may help some drivers save money it potentially opens up enormous costs for others. 

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

Just gotta let everyone know that I tried this service and the guys Sean @miata cage and will scraper were awesome and provided a great service highly recommend to everyone.

[Jim Boemler]

Love Will's new nickname! 

[Michael Colangelo]

Love Will's new nickname! 

LOL!

Will Scraper rocks!

[Joe (dad) Jordan]

My bad.....old man eyes and lack of sleep kicked in Will Schrader........not scrapper, but maybe it is more appropriate!