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Runoffs Qualifying Procedure

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#1
MPR22

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It appears to me the SCCA can do more to equalize qualifying sessions by holding them at the same time each day instead of shuffling them through out the week.  Going into the run-offs every SM driver I talked to thought Tuesday morning was the crucial qualifying period to get it done barring rain.  As it worked out it was the absolute optimal qualifying conditions and almost everyone with the exception of those who had mechanical issues on Tuesday turned in their best time.  

 

Road America is a bit of special track from a weather standpoint as I have rarely seen a week long forecast with similar weather conditions for more than 3 days in row, but in the interest in looking forward I think we should talk to the SCCA en-mass about fixing the qualifying times for each class.  Everyone stands a better chance of being able to take advantage of multiple qualifying sessions if they start at the same time each day. 

 

One of the arguments against this brought up by a competitor in a different class was, " If we get 3 afternoon sessions we will never be able to break the qualifying record".  I wasn't sure I understood that comment as I personally don't go to the track to break records, I go to compete against the other drivers in my class under the conditions of the day.  It would be one thing if we were time trialing and getting huge contingency bonus for breaking a record.  

 

I am working on a template letter to express my desire to have the qualifying times fixed for each class for future Runoffs.  If enough people agree with my premise and send the same or similar letters we may be able to add yet another spec to our spec class.  

 

Anyone that has an argument against this please let me know, I would prefer to have thought through this thoroughly and be able to address any objection in my letter.   


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#2
Todd Lamb

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I think a better solution would be to award points for each qualifying session, and use the points to determine the race starting order. Thus all 3 sessions would count, but the weather would have less of an impact. It would reward consistency throughout the week and allow those who have an issue in one qualifying session to make up for it in the others.


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#3
James York

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Mike,

 

I put the present qualifying format in "its the same for everyone" so, it is what it is.  The years I attended the Runoff, you would always look at when your morning session was coupled with the weather forecast and make sure you were ready.  And of course, luck (good and bad) is always a factor.  

 

That being said, Todd's idea might be a way to accomplish what you are shooting for in addition to putting everyone on the track in every official SCCA timed session.


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#4
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Or they could just race their way in like NASA does. I love that format!
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#5
Craig Berry

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It appears to me the SCCA can do more to equalize qualifying sessions by holding them at the same time each day instead of shuffling them through out the week.  Going into the run-offs every SM driver I talked to thought Tuesday morning was the crucial qualifying period to get it done barring rain.  As it worked out it was the absolute optimal qualifying conditions and almost everyone with the exception of those who had mechanical issues on Tuesday turned in their best time.  
 
Road America is a bit of special track from a weather standpoint as I have rarely seen a week long forecast with similar weather conditions for more than 3 days in row, but in the interest in looking forward I think we should talk to the SCCA en-mass about fixing the qualifying times for each class.  Everyone stands a better chance of being able to take advantage of multiple qualifying sessions if they start at the same time each day. 
 
One of the arguments against this brought up by a competitor in a different class was, " If we get 3 afternoon sessions we will never be able to break the qualifying record".  I wasn't sure I understood that comment as I personally don't go to the track to break records, I go to compete against the other drivers in my class under the conditions of the day.  It would be one thing if we were time trialing and getting huge contingency bonus for breaking a record.  
 
I am working on a template letter to express my desire to have the qualifying times fixed for each class for future Runoffs.  If enough people agree with my premise and send the same or similar letters we may be able to add yet another spec to our spec class.  
 
Anyone that has an argument against this please let me know, I would prefer to have thought through this thoroughly and be able to address any objection in my letter.

I understand how you could want same times.....and I would not be against it, but there are so many factors involved with a fast lap. Wet, Dry, Wind (especially at Rd Am) Traffic, I guess there is a little luck involved no matter what times you set. Last year P1 and P2 where Not set on the overall "fastest" session. It can be a stressful process no matter what time is set to run during the days, because there are so many variables we cannot control. Good or bad, James said it best....same for everyone...
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#6
Jamz14

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Or they could just race their way in like NASA does. I love that format!

+1 ! They also might enjoy how they treat yellow flags, contact, track safety, stewards that can enforce rules without a contestant protest form, and no $100 fee to file.


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#7
Jim Drago

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I wouldnt be opposed to going out in the same order everyday. I could care less about track records or qualifying records? Is there even such a thing? I bet there is something we are missing, but I actually like the idea. It might be easier to set the car up as well if the temps are relatively constant.

We have a saying within our camp.. Just give me the rules and as long as they are the same for everyone, I really don't care. We will take those rules and try to win within the rules.

BTW.. I hate prefer not having 5 lap free for all qualifying races. The carnage is usually pretty severe. Qualifying is a part of the race weekend many enjoy and it "should ' show who is the fastest. Racing and qualifying races often Do NOT show that. Your qualifying position often can be ruined because of others. We had a qualifying race at Gateway this year and I hated it as well and I won it.
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#8
MPR22

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[quote name="MPR22" post="52499" timestamp="1380040589"]It appears to me the SCCA can do more to equalize qualifying sessions by holding them at the same time each day instead of shuffling them through out the week.  Going into the run-offs every SM driver I talked to thought Tuesday morning was the crucial qualifying period to get it done barring rain.  As it worked out it was the absolute optimal qualifying conditions and almost everyone with the exception of those who had mechanical issues on Tuesday turned in their best time.  
 
Road America is a bit of special track from a weather standpoint as I have rarely seen a week long forecast with similar weather conditions for more than 3 days in row, but in the interest in looking forward I think we should talk to the SCCA en-mass about fixing the qualifying times for each class.  Everyone stands a better chance of being able to take advantage of multiple qualifying sessions if they start at the same time each day. 
 
One of the arguments against this brought up by a competitor in a different class was, " If we get 3 afternoon sessions we will never be able to break the qualifying record".  I wasn't sure I understood that comment as I personally don't go to the track to break records, I go to compete against the other drivers in my class under the conditions of the day.  It would be one thing if we were time trialing and getting huge contingency bonus for breaking a record.  
 
I am working on a template letter to express my desire to have the qualifying times fixed for each class for future Runoffs.  If enough people agree with my premise and send the same or similar letters we may be able to add yet another spec to our spec class.  
 
Anyone that has an argument against this please let me know, I would prefer to have thought through this thoroughly and be able to address any objection in my letter.   [/quote


I understand how you could want same times.....and I would not be against it, but there are so many factors involved with a fast lap. Wet, Dry, Wind (especially at Rd Am) Traffic, I guess there is a little luck involved no matter what times you set. Last year P1 and P2 where Not set on the overall "fastest" session. It can be a stressful process no matter what time is set to run during the days, because there are so many variables we cannot control. Good or bad, James said it best....same for everyone...

I get the same for everyone comment. Basically this year there was only 1 qualifying session, other years there maybe more.  If they happen at the same time each day then you remove one more variable. It does not change the same for everyone element, if anything it improves it.  If a car breaks down he/she has the ability to go out in another session and try again.  Why have 3 qual sessions if two of them are relatively meaningless.  Give me one session and I am good with that.  To have 3 separate qualifying sessions and then arbitrarily move the starting times from day to day makes no sense to me.  Also if gives you a full 23H:30 M to fix/prepare the car.  If you have a 4:00pm session one day and 8:00 session the very next day you will be hard pressed to make repairs to a car if you need off track help.  

 

The difference in theoretical HP from Tues to Thurs qual was 8.125 HP based on a 125Hp engine.  

 

I get we can't control the weather but we sure can control what time we hit the track. 

 

What is so bad about wanting to out at the same time everyday?  How does that hurt anyone?  


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#9
MPR22

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I get the same for everyone comment. Basically this year there was only 1 qualifying session, other years there maybe more.  If they happen at the same time each day then you remove one more variable. It does not change the same for everyone element, if anything it improves it.  If a car breaks down he/she has the ability to go out in another session and try again.  Why have 3 qual sessions if two of them are relatively meaningless.  Give me one session and I am good with that.  To have 3 separate qualifying sessions and then arbitrarily move the starting times from day to day makes no sense to me.  Also it gives you a full 23H:30 M to fix/prepare the car.  If you have a 4:00pm session one day and 8:00am session the very next day you will be hard pressed to make repairs to a car if you need off track help.  

 

The difference in theoretical HP from Tues to Thurs qual was 8.125 HP based on a 125Hp engine.  

 

I get we can't control the weather but we sure can control what time we hit the track. 

 

What is so bad about wanting to out at the same time everyday?  How does that hurt anyone?  


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#10
Rob Burgoon

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Why 4 sessions of qualifying?  Why not just have one and not spend all week there?


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#11
Craig Berry

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Micheal, I dont know why anyone would not agree with your plan. Lamb's idea is interesting as well.
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#12
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What is so bad about wanting to out at the same time everyday?  How does that hurt anyone?  

 

Wasnt there so my opinion isnt very important, but to me your idea only works if the same time you qual is the same time you will race on the final day. You will dial in setup in the qual sessions at say 8 am, well if you race at 4pm, you may need a bit different setup but you have no way to know since you only drove the track at 8am each day.

 

Also, what about those sleeping beauties???  Lamb has hard time getting up early as he is trying to let the European Mudd face peel do its thing, Charbs might be able to get up early but he will still be drunk if he gets up before noon as he didnt stop drinkin till 4am.   This gives the East Street band another advantage as their team curfew is 9pm :)


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#13
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Todd's idea is a good one and a nice compromise between qualifying races and what SCCA does now.  That and have more than 1 session per day would shorten the event in terms of days.  I know that was tried a couple years ago.  I thought it was a good change. Not sure why the old format was re-instated.  A week is just far too long IMO.  700 entries might suggest that I'm in the minority on that one.  


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#14
MPR22

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Wasnt there so my opinion isnt very important, but to me your idea only works if the same time you qual is the same time you will race on the final day. You will dial in setup in the qual sessions at say 8 am, well if you race at 4pm, you may need a bit different setup but you have no way to know since you only drove the track at 8am each day.

 

Also, what about those sleeping beauties???  Lamb has hard time getting up early as he is trying to let the European Mudd face peel do its thing, Charbs might be able to get up early but he will still be drunk if he gets up before noon as he didnt stop drinkin till 4am.   This gives the East Street band another advantage as their team curfew is 9pm :)

The qualifying session time should rotate from year to year so Mr. Lamb will only be affected by the 8:00 am qual once every 13 years if they keep 13 timed qual sessions.  Test and Tunes allow for tuning of suspensions and other handling characteristics during various times of day.  Ideally the race would start at the same time as qual but I doubt that will happen.  Caveman, not trying to make this a Spec Qualifying, just Similar Qualifying.  


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#15
Todd Green

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I could care less about track records or qualifying records? Is there even such a thing?

Yes there is such a thing as caring less, which is why the saying is "I couldn't care less."  Grammatical ribbing aside, the SCCA had a press release about track records falling in qualifying so maybe it is a big deal.  I always thought they only cared about race results?  At least that is what the GCR says:

 

6.10.6. Lap Record
Official lap records are set during races; not practice or qualifying. A
driver whose car is penalized for non-compliance in a race may not set a
lap record in that race.


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Micheal, I dont know why anyone would not agree with your plan. Lamb's idea is interesting as well.

One idea does not preclude the other from being presented to the SCCA.  Mr. Lamb's sessions could all be at the same time of day.  


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#17
Todd Lamb

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My understanding was that they went back to the old "long week" format for the 50th....so will they be returning to the "short week" format for the 51st?

 

It was indeed a long week - arriving Friday for Sat/Sun test, and staying until Sunday for STL.

 

At least running two classes with the same car you get plenty of time on track to dial in setup or try new things....the SM/STL combo is pretty good and the sessions were spread out nicely. But irregardless (a la: "I could care less" :optimist: ) running two classes shouldn't be a requirement for ample track time.


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#18
Rob Burgoon

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My ideal runoffs:  test day, then 8am practice 10am qual 1pm race, GTFO.


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#19
RussMcB

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...irregardless (a la: "I could care less" :optimist: ) ...

Reminds me of the time my friend said, "You cease to amaze me.".


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#20
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My ideal runoffs:  test day, then 8am practice 10am qual 1pm race, GTFO.

 
I understand the GTFO. Why don't you post a schedule for 700 cars and 2? some classes.  :bigsquaregrin:


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