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NASA Enduro E3 classing a Miata

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#21
Caveman-kwebb99

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the big problem as i see it you can have 145hp @ 2400lb so they are still handy capping an sm by holding it down to 130hp... uncorked a good sm should be arouns 140 or more and yet anyone else can build a miata and use all the sm parts to stay in pte and get a145hp... seems to me they are still trying to penalize you from running an sm head, which is just the best head possible for the factory. 

 

When I was serioous about the pte national championships I built a seperate car with most of the sm parts on it staying below the points threshold and I had 145hp...  the car would have been illegal in sm by along shot. 


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#22
EricJ

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138hp is the limit for a TTE 2400lb Miata points car. There's a -.85 modifier based on the weight. It's buried in Appendix A of the rules.



#23
Caveman-kwebb99

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Hmmm...  I know I was put on the dyno once at the track and didnt break out on hp...  Its very possible the track dyno is off 7 to the dyno I use regularly...  It seems its off more then that when they have a good sm on the track dyno. 

 

some time I will read this apedix A you are talking about. 

 

Either forcing the SM to stay at 130hp and letting another competitor to build basically the same car to 138 is just flat wrong...  We might have to start making SM drivers use a different drinking fountain out back... 


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#24
Chad Martin

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The reclasses are "notchy" if that makes any sense.  Meaning the only way to do a reclass to keep the SM in PTE (after suspension and other points are added) are the ones they published.  If you had a higher HP car you would end up with a * (PTE +7 base) and none of the cars on SM tires could stay in PTE anyway.  The miatas due to their top notch chassis are handicaped vs other cars admittedly and FWD cars in general get way more WHP allowance than RWD cars due to the adj factors.

 

In most cases nowadays one is better off using a reclass.  I believe from anecdotal evidence that the reclasses have become more favorable as of late. I think they are trying to encourage people to reclass and reclass often in PT/TT.

 

I wont go into my long winded personal opinion but i would do it differently were i running PT, but, i'm not....

 

I think the case is being made here through all this is: It is indeed not within the PT rules and not fair to just pull a restrictor on a SM and be a PTE car (+6 for head work or not).  Do all the available spec miata mods make sense as "mods" in PT (like the chin spoiler), of course not.  BUT the whole idea of the NASA TT/PT system is open modification allowances accounted for by points, applied in a threshold manner, giving people enormous flexibility in building a car, while trying to keep the rules under 25 pages or whatever...PT wasn't written so spec miata's could sweep E3 Enduro Podiums.  Does this mean the SM is the ideal PTE car? again, nope...

 

The head issue in my mind is semantics.  It's going to end up being a dyno thing anyway....so most likely 94-05 cars would be best off with pulling the spoiler when they pull the plate and running it that way hoping they don't go over the 138 on a dynojet. (assuming that math is correct).

 

Now if specific NASA regions are not interested in all these messy details, so be it.  In my region i'm simply trying to enforce the rules as written, universally, to encourage good competition and NASA credibility. 



#25
Johnny D

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The way I took it was...

If you want to run NASA SM, run SM. (different run group)

If you want to run PT/TT in SM trim you could in this new class. Note: there's a (you May) in the verbage.

You want to run PT with a basic SM setup and you wanted to mod, you could.

Or if you want to run a full blown PT car you could.

 

And you can run PTE if you know what your doing or talking about from a SM setup.

J~


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#26
Chad Martin

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If you want a perfect example of how the FWD cars have it made in PT/TT for the most part, watch Kyle Chase a ford probe around (that could easily have been 2 weeks prior up on jack stands under a tarp in someones back yard) in the 2011 PT champ race...(i'm fairly sure that was you kyle?)



#27
Caveman-kwebb99

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Yep that was me... passed him a few times and he would just drive right back by... i needed 2-3 more laps really as i had forced him to overheating his tires by the end of the race. his car was a total pos but he drove it actually pretty good for what he had. i can't take anything away from Mr. Reid... nice guy also. Alex and i started that race as suedo team mates with one thing in mind beating the probe. we passed each other a couple times but only because we each made some minor mistakes. if Alex could have stayed in the race we both would have beaten him. Alex lost a hub and slowed us both but as hes exited the race he gave me one last push and then a lap later i was back on the probe. i threw every trick i had at him knowing i needed him to make a mistake or burn up tires. frustrating


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#28
Glenn Davis

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Todd drove that Probe in MA for awhile.  That is the nastiest sounding car on the track; even when the RX-7's are running.


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#29
Chad Martin

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Ok, Greg made a wordy adjustment to the rules as part of the 90-93 reclass that basically means, if you are racing a 1.6L SM fully built with all the SM allowed mods and want to run in PT you only have to take 1 pt for chassis bracing if you are using the 97 subframe braces.

 

Thus a fully built 1.6L SM is maxed out in PTE on 205 SM6/7s.  (instead of 2 points into PTD) 

 

I still think it isn't full parity being the 99+ cars have lots of extra points to play with and remain in PTE...



#30
john mueller

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Thus a fully built 1.6L SM is maxed out in PTE on 205 SM6/7s.  (instead of 2 points into PTD) 

 

I still think it isn't full parity being the 99+ cars have lots of extra points to play with and remain in PTE...

 

 

I know it sounds crazy but this is a big win...  Regardless, the Dyno Re-Class is rather easy to do.  I'm still pursing getting "SM's" to be viewed differently than a Miata built for PT/TT,  but this is proving to be a very steep uphill battle.

 

 

NASA PT Rules

Go to page 40 for Miata details

 

Dyno Form

You'll need one of these too


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#31
Johnny D

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They have a PT Class Calculator too, fancy. :)

 

http://www.nasaprora...or_2014_v1.xlsx

 

 

J~


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