274 replies to this topic

[SaulSpeedwell]

Interesting thread.  What is this blue grease in the video?  Not sure I've ever seen blue...

 

Mobil Infinitec 152, bought way back when it was available in 5 lb pails.  Now only available in kegs (120 lb?) and barrels.  It is a premium OEM-spec "lifetime" grease that I've never seen available retail, and it is shockingly expensive. 

 

On one hand, I feel like there is no such thing as "magic grease" that is magic enough to remedy the failures seen in this thread.  On the other hand, I know OEMs won't pay a single NICKEL for something unless they think they need it.  This grease is WAY more than a nickel per bearing more than "normal" greases.

 

Just FYI:  All of my special reserve bearings are long gone.  I have no current plans to have more made.  I keep the grease for existing customers wishing to do repacks.

 

My advice:

-DO replace the crappy aftermarket grease in your as-received bearings

-Don't overpack your bearings.  Overpacking is worse than underpacking.  So says NTN and every other bearing maker.  I posted the spec in one of the other "failed hub" threads.  Google will find NTN's PDF guideline easily.    Pack the balls and races, and let the excess push to the sides.  More grease=more insulation=more heat=more slop when running=more failures more soon

-Don't tie your car down to 5 times its weight when towing.

-Don't have wheel-to-wheels

-Don't stuff in studs that have too much interference - better yet, buy wheels that are "right" and run stock studs!

-DON'T DON'T DON'T UNDERTORQUE your hubs trying to make them "fast"

-DO have a dial type or beam-needle torque wrench, and make sure the silly thing is accurate enough to stay within Mazda's spec

-DO keep your seals in tact and RTV your hubcap on - unless you WANT to replace bearings after every wet race or wet "tow"

-Keep an open mind and have some open dialog about moving back toward more reasonable wheel offsets and/or "less tire"

[Todd Green]

Wow...I don't read these forums all that frequenty.  Only have a few minutes and only skimmed the last two pages of this thread, but to answer what I can:

 

1) I use ARP studs (100-7719)  Use a harbor freight 20T press with a socket supporting the flange while pressing.

2) Toyo RR tires

3) Don't undertorque the hub nut  (just over whatever the low end of the factory manual says it should be)

4) Never had a loose lug nut after a session.

5) Don't tow...have a garage at the track

6) I have the caps on my hubs with a small (1/8"?) hole drilled in the middle.

7) I'll take closer pics next time I'm at the track.  No idea when that'll be.  Might be months, might be in a week.  Kinda taking the year off.  Burned out.

8) Mazdaspeed hubs, original grease, not repacked etc.

9) Vibration was at all speeds. 

10) It gave plenty of warning before it let go. It made it 1.5 laps after the vibrations got *really* bad before giving up the ghost. (I was trying to make half the race distance for points.)  So 1 lap virtually no issues.  2nd lap medium vibration.  3rd lap oh shit meter starts pegging.  4th lap just limping to try to bring it into the pits and it let go about half way around.  (~3 mile track.)

 

When I have time I'll read the last pages thoroughly and see if I missed any questions.

[SaulSpeedwell]

Blah blah hub failure blah should maybe all happen here? 

[Danny Steyn]

.... I definitely saw more hub failures with the sticky SM6's. Have had no failures with the SM7's

[Johnny D]

Said with a , for a site moderator, you seem to have selective thread/post reading capabilities. Did you miss the post of the Mazda super duper hub failures at NJMP this past weekend? You seem to be cherry picken posts that favor your thought process. With all the periphery fluff aside (the same fluff existed back in the day when the E prod 1st gen Rx7 hub was redesinged) there are two main issues were looking at, a very weak hub race/bearing balls/hub flange and tires that apply to much load to the hub race/bearing balls/hub flange.

 

 

Yes I cherry picked the post that had the longest time until failure, my bad.

 

Oh and if you read it, it mentioned using only the Toyos RR's.

 

And if you look online at Tire Rack, you'll see a Toyo RR tread width of 7.6"

While the Hoosiers have a tread width 8".

 

I'm done on this subject David. I pointed out the advantage.

J~

[Todd Green]

One other thing I just thought of that I think is worth mentioning, for those not aware, is that MMP is a counterclockwise track, so most corners are left handers.  That makes it interesting that the left front hub failed.

[Todd Green]

Someone asked for a LatG comparison, so here's my info for the RA1, R1, RR, and SM7 for my fastest laps on MMP East.  SCCA SM track record is 1:50.494 by Steve Powers in 2010 in Aug heat (at least that was the last I could find), so these are pretty decent laps (most run under NASA, R1 lap was under MPRA using SCCA rules in 2010.)  SM7 was my first flying lap on the tire ever with no setup changes and no idea on pressures, so I'm sure there is more in it.  FWIW.

 

Tire   Time        Peak Lat G (0.3 second avg) Color on graph

----   -------       -------

SM7 1:49.337 1.46g (red)

RR  1:49.451  1.48g (blue)

R1   1:49.599  1.42g (orange)

RA1 1:50.030  1.43g (green)

 

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

Has any of you tried the Timken wheel bearings ?
My first two years of race I went through roughly about 4 to 5 sets of factory and after market bearings. Then I switched to the Timkens and had them on the car for about 3 1/2 years and I never took them apart to grease them just bolted them on. I've had some off track rides and a few side impacts and never had a issue with them. I used the studs that came with them.i don't know how they would be if you took them apart and used different grease with them, maybe better maybe worse I don't know. I do know most of the part stores around here do not stock them and I had to special order them. They do cost a little more then the normal after market ones out there but we'll worth it ! I have not raced with the new tires yet so it could be a big difference.

But what do I know,I'm just a slow and lonely 1.6 driver ! lol

[LarryKing]

Timken eh? (tapping my fingertips together like Monty Burns) Who's your supplier?

[SaulSpeedwell]

I believe you will find not all TIMKENS have been the same over the years, and that they have obsoleted the Miata (a.k.a. Festiva/121) front hub from their aftermarket offering just recently. 

 

If you love TIMKENS, buy what you can find now and hope it is the version you love.

 

The data above reinforces my belief that lateral G differences between the tires is NOT a major contributor.

 

Drago somewhere said his heavier, more powerful STL car doesn't have a problem, but what is the scrub radius and rolling radius on that setup?  Those things directly turn lateral and vertical forces into moments on the hub. 

[Jim Drago]

Drago somewhere said his heavier, more powerful STL car doesn't have a problem, but what is the scrub radius and rolling radius on that setup?  Those things directly turn lateral and vertical forces into moments on the hub.

I do run 38 mm offset on that car

[Brandon]

I do run 38 mm offset on that car

 

Jim, you may very well be onto something.  I run 30mm + a 5mm spacer ("prepared to the limit of the rules").

Starting my own thread now w/my write-up I'm submitting to Mazda & their supplier.

[Jim Drago]

Jim, you may very well be onto something.  I run 30mm + a 5mm spacer ("prepared to the limit of the rules").
Starting my own thread now w/my write-up I'm submitting to Mazda & their supplier.

Jim, you may very well be onto something.  I run 30mm + a 5mm spacer ("prepared to the limit of the rules").
Starting my own thread now w/my write-up I'm submitting to Mazda & their supplier.

Actually Mark may be on to something.. I am just pointing it out

[Brandon]

Ah yes, you are 'right again'!

 

Just started a thread w/my own summary of the MSP hub failure.  Go read-up!

[Bench Racer]

I do run 38 mm offset on that car

Do you use the same tire/size on your STL car at same pressure as Spec Miata?    Understand STL tire ruel,

[Jim Drago]

Do you use the same tire/size on your STL car at same pressure as Spec Miata?    Understand STL tire ruel,

 

Many times in STL I run older Sm tires.. If i am using tires in a competive situation I will run 225 or 205 A compound which is much more grip/load. 

Jim

[Johnny D]

How about drivers with calm/slow hands ??

Are their Hubs lasting longer?

 

Not the source of the problem, but maybe a contributing factor?

J~

[SaulSpeedwell]

I do run 38 mm offset on that car

 

But, also, how "tall" is the tire on the STL?  if you look at the bearing load diagram, the scrub radius and tire height are direct "multipliers" of loads and moments at the bearing ...

 

My experience has always been that these hubs fail at the outer race of the outboard row of balls.  Is that still the case with the new rash of failures?

 

I have some post-processing ideas we could try, but we need to figure out what the least sucky base hub is that we can start from .... and we need some test drivers that are failing them so often that we will be able to tell we are making a difference?

 

 

 

 

[Bench Racer]

Ah yes, you are 'right again'!

 

Just started a thread w/my own summary of the MSP hub failure.  Go read-up!

Saul, did you read Brandon's thread, the super duper MazdaSpeed hubs are failing on Spec Miata. Happened for Brandon and another Spec Miata racer whose name I don't remember. When we are allowed to play with a new hub design, will the design be a two row cartridge or taprered bearings? Along with studs rather than knurled bolts.

[Mike L]

Mine was the other MS HD hub that also showed play after one day (20min Q / 45 min R) at NJMP Thunderbolt.  I do also use the runout curbing generously as coached.  Mine is a 99 build, had torqued the nut to 135 ft/lbs.  Reasonably sure of accuracy of my Craftsman digitork wrench as I checked it recently with a new Craftsman beam-type torque wrench.

 

Had already sent my hub back to Mazda (actually ProParts), and they've checked out my hub.  While they did find some slight play with the torque settings around 125 ft/lbs., when they took it to the high end of the spec (Mazda quoted 123 - 159 ft/lbs), any play was gone.  They recommended to me to reinstall the hub once I got it back with the 159 ft/lb setting and recheck.  I've now experienced noticeable play after one day on two different hubs, the 1st was a new Timkin hub repacked with Redline CV2, also torqued to 135 ft/lbs, running at Watkins Glen.  Second time was 2 weeks later at NJMP listed above with the Mazda HD hub.  As I'm no expert nor engineer, I'm just going to try to clamp down with the new recommended specs and cross my fingers...oh yeah...and get 4 more new hubs for insurance.