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1.6L speed secrets thread

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#21
marcusmazza

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I thought it may be worthwhile for us 1.6L guys to collect a list of items that must be optimized in order to maximize the 1.6L.  I'm not including driver skill or motor builds.  I'll assume that the motor is not an issue (a dyno can tell you that) and that the driver has worked on his own skill (a weak area for me).  The idea is the non-routine-maintenance stuff that can cause our cars to perform sub-optimally.

 

I have to disagree with the assumption that the motor is not an issue. Mark 'Speedwell' Bennet pointed out, there are a thousand 116HP 1.6L's out there, but probably very few 122HP+ and even less 125HP+ 1.6L's out there. A 116HP 1.6L is not going to compete with a '99, but a 125HP 1.6L will. I'm in the 116HPish camp, even though I have a pro built motor. I'll admit I probably haven't spent enough time on the dyno, but will I get there with just AFM and fuel pressure tuning?

 

Mark mentions exhaust tuning (needing a good exhaust manifold and downpipe), but for most of us, showing up to a dyno tuning session and swapping manifolds is a pain in the ass. I suppose you could buy a bunch and throw them on a flow bench, or is it how well they match the head?

 

So how much are the external bits worth (exhaust manifold, downpipe, air filter, etc.) and how much is the AFM tuning worth. Can I get into the 120's with my current engine by doing a better tuning job?

 

So back to the discussion of AFM tuning. So, let's forget the A/F ratio reading and just go by torque and power. Is there a sweet spot? If I go too lean, will I start to lose power and torque? I assume so, but does this happen at a point when I'm already too lean as far as melting down my engine is concerned. I understand the spark map. If I loosen the clock spring, and correct A/F ratio using fuel pressure, the AFM will think the engine is at a higher load than it actually is, giving me a flatter spark map (less advance at higher rpm). It would seem then, using both the sweeper adjustment in the AFM and using an adjustable fuel pressure regulater would allow me to independently adjust where I am on the load/spark advance map and were my A/F ratio is.

 

I'm sure nobody wants to give away trade secrets, but I assume the best AFM tuning is to loosen the flapper (clockspring) and adjust the sweeper back to counter the fact that the flapper will now be open wider for a given airflow. Adjusting the sweeper back gets you back to the point on the spark advance map you want to be on, and leans the car back out. Probably gets you close, but the adjustable fuel pressure can then fine tune your A/F ratio. Rotating the AFM so gravity helps keep the flapper open helps reduce restriction even further and keeps cornering forces from screwing with the A/F ratio. Am I close???? Setting base timing does not accomplish the same, since I assume it just shifts the entire map up and down?

 

I didn't adjust the sweeper during my dyno tuning session last year since I assumed it accomplished the same thing as my fuel pressure regulater, in that it just adjusted the A/F ratio. Mark's comment on the spark map made me realize that it is not the same. I will be scheduling another dyno appointment to try out my above theory.

 

I truly believe that if we could get more 1.6's running in the 122HP+ range, that parity to the '99s would not be an issue.

 

Marc



#22
Tom OPM

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A couple of quick notes :  The Buras car was a BSI build, Drago engine and tricks and a OPM maintained and tuned. Give everyone their dues. That car was always being developed. All of the stuff Mark points out is true. The other area people forget is ROLLING and DRAG. All the HP and TQ will not win races if you forget that area. Driver, you can not bind up a 1.6. Buras you drive a really free car. Your average driver would have put that car in a tire wall. So yes it is possible but a tough road to hoe. 


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#23
Mike Collins

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#24
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So why do we make it so hard for a 1.6 to win

 

Just saying




 

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#25
Jim Drago

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So why do we make it so hard for a 1.6 to win

 

Just saying

I thought it was supposed to be hard to win? It is for me :)


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#26
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It is hard to win, but, lots of learned racers and builders have stated it is a lot harder in a 1.6




 

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#27
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If you want to win in a 1.6 all the time...you need unlimited dyno access.

Ok, I'll bite. Mike, Drago, anyone, what is the number 1 issue that changes with the 1.6 relative to the dyno.

Everything would not be an accecptable response. :no:  At my station in life, dyno tuning to learn/determin max hp and tq of the engine was my goal. If the engine losses a few, my times will never show the difference. 


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#28
SaulSpeedwell

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If you want to win in a 1.6 all the time...you need unlimited dyno access.

 

Sort of agree:  But if you run the same fuel and same atmospheric conditions, once the car is right, it stays right.  BUT .. change one thing ... and back to the dyno you go!


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#29
SaulSpeedwell

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I have to disagree with the assumption that the motor is not an issue. Mark 'Speedwell' Bennet pointed out, there are a thousand 116HP 1.6L's out there, but probably very few 122HP+ and even less 125HP+ 1.6L's out there. A 116HP 1.6L is not going to compete with a '99, but a 125HP 1.6L will. I'm in the 116HPish camp, even though I have a pro built motor. I'll admit I probably haven't spent enough time on the dyno, but will I get there with just AFM and fuel pressure tuning?

 

Mark mentions exhaust tuning (needing a good exhaust manifold and downpipe), but for most of us, showing up to a dyno tuning session and swapping manifolds is a pain in the ass. I suppose you could buy a bunch and throw them on a flow bench, or is it how well they match the head?

 

So how much are the external bits worth (exhaust manifold, downpipe, air filter, etc.) and how much is the AFM tuning worth. Can I get into the 120's with my current engine by doing a better tuning job?

 

So back to the discussion of AFM tuning. So, let's forget the A/F ratio reading and just go by torque and power. Is there a sweet spot? If I go too lean, will I start to lose power and torque? I assume so, but does this happen at a point when I'm already too lean as far as melting down my engine is concerned. I understand the spark map. If I loosen the clock spring, and correct A/F ratio using fuel pressure, the AFM will think the engine is at a higher load than it actually is, giving me a flatter spark map (less advance at higher rpm). It would seem then, using both the sweeper adjustment in the AFM and using an adjustable fuel pressure regulater would allow me to independently adjust where I am on the load/spark advance map and were my A/F ratio is.

 

I'm sure nobody wants to give away trade secrets, but I assume the best AFM tuning is to loosen the flapper (clockspring) and adjust the sweeper back to counter the fact that the flapper will now be open wider for a given airflow. Adjusting the sweeper back gets you back to the point on the spark advance map you want to be on, and leans the car back out. Probably gets you close, but the adjustable fuel pressure can then fine tune your A/F ratio. Rotating the AFM so gravity helps keep the flapper open helps reduce restriction even further and keeps cornering forces from screwing with the A/F ratio. Am I close???? Setting base timing does not accomplish the same, since I assume it just shifts the entire map up and down?

 

I didn't adjust the sweeper during my dyno tuning session last year since I assumed it accomplished the same thing as my fuel pressure regulater, in that it just adjusted the A/F ratio. Mark's comment on the spark map made me realize that it is not the same. I will be scheduling another dyno appointment to try out my above theory.

 

I truly believe that if we could get more 1.6's running in the 122HP+ range, that parity to the '99s would not be an issue.

 

Marc

 

Somewhat self-serving post:  I spent years and seriously ~1000 dyno runs between 2 engineers, 2 cars, 5 engines, 2 engine builders, with a local dyno charging us almost nothing, figuring out the AFM.  You are better off starting with one already "tuned/adjusted", and use your AFPR or the clockspring to finetune.  Buy it from me, or Drago, or Stewart, or RE, or anyone else that knows what they are doing - but it is NOT worth trying to reinvent the wheel yourself.  I'm not leaving people off of that list because of politics, I simply know that the aforementioned "know what they are doing" w.r.t the AFM.  I'm sure there are others that know what they are doing, but I also know there are some AFM tuners lost in the weeds.  And I also firmly believe that an AFPR alone will NOT get you best T and HP because it does not and cannot address the restrictor plate and spark map issues.  An AFPR WILL get you perfect AFR, but there is no trophy for perfect AFR  :)  The adjustments are extremely "iterative", and the wiper adjustment is particularly sensitive.  Take a video of an opened up AFM at WOT on the dyno, and you'll see the wiper barely moves in the region we care about (WOT >5700 RPM).

 

I see "tuned" AFMs that are awful, and I see ones that are as good as I would do myself.  The 1.6 is so nonrepeatable on the dyno, and since "flat" AFR generally AIN'T the right answer, you are PROBABLY BS-ing yourself if you are trying to do it yourself - UNLESS you are insane like we were and running 2 cars 25+ runs in a session, several times a year.

 

If I had a nickel for every 1.6 guy that said:  I went to the dyno and made 120 (or 116), but last time I made 116 (120)! .... I'd have at least $115.  It takes religious dedication, a well-maintained and patient dyno vendor, and 100s of runs, to separate "noise" from "signal" w.r.t. 1.6 dyno testing.  If your laptimes and straight-line data are good, that is probably MORE reliable than the dyno.

I have never seen a 1.6 make best T and HP when it is "too lean".  If your dyno days are convincing you that "too lean is better", check the 02 calibration and spark plugs.  >13:1 is not "too lean" for a 1.6.  >14:1, be concerned .... but if plugs look OK, no audible sounds of knock, and you are running good fuel, you are probably OK. 

Tip:  I always found Sunoco GT100 (aka CAM2 Unleaded 100) was worth 1.5/1.5 on the 1.6 .... and worth nothing on the 99.  I ran GT100 always because I could trust it, I could wash my car with it, I could wash my face with it, and it was $5.60/gal from my local Speedway.  It is gasoline as God intended it in 1967.  Clear, dries with no residue or odor.  Good stuff.

When it comes to DPs and headers, YES, flow them.  No, we aren't "matching" anything -we are just looking for best-flowing parts and in the end you'll  tune to match that stuff.   Most of our namebrand known SM engine builders know what a good header is, and can flow yours, and probably provide you a "good" one. OR, ask your engine builder to provide you a good one.  Chances are he is working with a vendor that is "recreating" the best header Mazda ever made.  Decide for yourself whether you will lose sleep over that.  "Bad" headers tend to show up as a "knee" in the HP curve at high RPMs - again, acting like a restrictor plate.  Bad headers always look bad inside, but sometimes headers that LOOK bad are surprisingly awesome.  SOP is to acquire many, send to your engine builder, have them flowed, pick the best.  Early 1990 headers tend to be "gold", but they also tend to be already leaking or rewelded, and you MUST MUST MUST run the damn horseshoe brace to prevent future leaks and failure.

 

+1 for what Fowler said.  It takes only a SMIDGE of brake drag or crappy alignment to piss away 2-6 HP. 

 

I'm starting to get obsolete on where parity is, but my gut says the 1.6 is a good horse for a clever guy with fast hands!  Outqualify those 99 "tractors" and check out before they can get in front of you and kill your midcorner advantage :)


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#30
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I'm starting to get obsolete on where parity is, but my gut says the 1.6 is a good horse for a clever guy with fast hands!  Outqualify those 99 "tractors" and check out before they can get in front of you and kill your midcorner advantage :)

:rotfl:  ^ thanks, my giggle for the day.     Why do I beleive there there will be none of those ^ at the Blackhawk Farm for the weekend.


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#31
SaulSpeedwell

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:rotfl:  ^ thanks, my giggle for the day.     Why do I beleive there there will be none of those ^ at the Blackhawk Farm for the weekend.

Because your confirmation bias precludes you from accepting anyone else's opinion as valid, and thus you assign causality to correlation where it isn't justified?   

 

(*giggle*?!)


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#32
Alberto

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Good god that's a lot of work for a $5 trophy. 

 

This thread has just helped me confirm that I'm definitely going sealed SM for my regional racing even if I have to de-tune my engine to get there. 


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#33
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I just moved up from 90 to a 99.   After years of setup work that 90 was a very good handling car, and I still can not get my 99 to the same place as the 90.  There are corners I die to be back in the 90.  Maybe is the setup, maybe it is the 100lbs, maybe it is me.  And the reality is all three, I need to continue to evolve the setup, deal with the weight and adjust my driving.  But I will say that while in my 90 i could get a really good qualifying lap, the lack of torque in the 1.6 kills you on the starts and resulted in me watching 2 to 4 positions slip by before i could get the momentum up.  I miss the feel of 90.  But having had both and knowing the benefits and weakness I believe I would make the decision again to get a 99.   

 

However earlier this year at Nor Cal NASA event, the NAs swept the podium and two of them were 1.6s.......


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#34
pat slattery

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Ok, Mark, would a megasquirt system help the tuning of these 1.6 cars that take the over the top dyno time that most do not have access,  or a budget for, and help bring back the 1.6 as a national car?




 

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#35
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I have to disagree with the assumption that the motor is not an issue.

 
Marc


Let me clarify, I didn't mean that motors are a non issue, but it seems to me to be the easiest piece of the puzzle. Having the best $7000 motor is worthless without tuning. That's why I wanted to focus on optimization.

#36
Sphinx

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That will never happen. The unintended consequence I'd that the 1.6 ends up being super optimized by the big budget guys (who'll combine the mega squirt with unlimited dyno time) and we are back to square one.

Ok, Mark, would a megasquirt system help the tuning of these 1.6 cars that take the over the top dyno time that most do not have access,  or a budget for, and help bring back the 1.6 as a national car?



#37
pat slattery

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Not asking to make the 1.6 the overdog, but is it to much to ask to make it as easy to tune as a 99.  If it needs some weight than lets even it up that way,  or open up the restrictors a little on the 99's




 

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#38
marcusmazza

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Somewhat self-serving post:  I spent years and seriously ~1000 dyno runs between 2 engineers, 2 cars, 5 engines, 2 engine builders, with a local dyno charging us almost nothing, figuring out the AFM.  You are better off starting with one already "tuned/adjusted", and use your AFPR or the clockspring to finetune.  

 

Sorry, I'm actually trying to help out all the 1.6 guys in their tuning endeavors. If it came off self-serving, I apologize. I really feel that getting the tuning wrong on the 1.6 is what is putting many at a disadvantage to the 99's. I guess I just feel that if there was a way to get more 1.6's into the 122HP+ range without crazy constant dyno time, than we (all 1.6 guys/gals) could be more competitive with the 99's. I don't think the 99's spend nearly as much time on the dyno. Anyway, it sounds like buying a pre-tuned AFM and flow tested exhaust manifold may be the way to go, and you have me seriously thinking about it.

 

Marc



#39
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Your wrong about the 99's not spending as much time on the dyno, I can personally promise you that. My whole fleet hits the rollers before every race, and usually right after every race to see if anything is going soft. The year model of the car doesn't matter either. If its at the top of the heap, it's getting 110% attention, ALL the time. 


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#40
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Sorry, I'm actually trying to help out all the 1.6 guys in their tuning endeavors. If it came off self-serving, I apologize. I really feel that getting the tuning wrong on the 1.6 is what is putting many at a disadvantage to the 99's. I guess I just feel that if there was a way to get more 1.6's into the 122HP+ range without crazy constant dyno time, than we (all 1.6 guys/gals) could be more competitive with the 99's. I don't think the 99's spend nearly as much time on the dyno. Anyway, it sounds like buying a pre-tuned AFM and flow tested exhaust manifold may be the way to go, and you have me seriously thinking about it.

 

Marc

 

No no no, I was saying MY post was somewhat self-serving because I DO sell tuned AFMs.  Sorry for the miscomm!


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