53 replies to this topic

[Johnny D]

So when the rule spec is defined...

It depends on how small you cup your hand ??

That's not going to fly.

J~

[Dan Tiley]

So when the rule spec is defined...

It depends on how small you cup your hand ??

That's not going to fly.

J~

 

No Johnny... I recommended doing that to Charlie as a quick way to see the impact of testing with the valve cover on.  Wrapping your hand around the probe during the test has the same effect as the valve cover being there, and you can watch the numbers change immediately.  No hands are anywhere near the probe during the actual reading.

[Jim Drago]

So when the rule spec is defined...

It depends on how small you cup your hand ??

That's not going to fly.

J~

Wheww.. good thing! Dan has smaller hands than me

[Charlie Hayes]

You know what they say about small hands!

[Johnny D]

You know what they say about small hands!

 

http://www.audiobloc.../crowd-aww.html

J~

[Ron Alan]

You know what they say about small hands!

It's twue, it's twue! (For you old guys and movie buffs! Dog gone, almost lost a $400 hand cart!)

[Mike Collins]

So...who is going to check when the whistler was last calibrated by Ktech?  I send mine back EVERY YEAR.  I have a receipt from Ktech but not a certificate.  If you fail the whister and feel your car is legal you should be able to request to be cc'd at no expense to the club.

 

The whister can vary significantly by the air source its hooked to...  Have you seen the tiny compressors used in tech?  Not ideal for repeatable whister results...

[Jim Drago]

 

The whister can vary significantly by the air source its hooked to...  Have you seen the tiny compressors used in tech?  Not ideal for repeatable whister results...

 

 

Very true. Even in the shop with a big compressor.. I don't start or run any test when the compressor is running, I typically wait until the tank is completely full. I try to always start with a healthy supply of air. 

[Bench Racer]

Ok, with all that's been said within both threads do we agree that the Whistler is a first order of checking and if a competitor does not agree with the results he may request the engine to be cc'ed. How about we drop all the can't do and have the engine cc'ed at the track by a capable person? Do we usually have a Spec Miata person at the track that is capable? Do we pay that person to cc the engine? Everyone put their cheater hats on and let's find a positive conclusion to cc'ing the engine at the track.

[NPiekarski]

Stupid question for the experts, does the intake and throttle body change the compression number, say if your throttle blade is open does it show a lower compression number. Maybe smart to cap the throttle body as any leakdown past the valves will also decrease compression number. I.E. Does 2% leak down through the valves, decrease the whistler number by 2%???

[Mike Collins]

 

Stupid question for the experts, does the intake and throttle body change the compression number, say if your throttle blade is open does it show a lower compression number. Maybe smart to cap the throttle body as any leakdown past the valves will also decrease compression number. I.E. Does 2% leak down through the valves, decrease the whistler number by 2%???

 

 

Throttle body has nothing to do with it.  Leaky valves could....  You can whistle a motor out of the car as a long block..

[Dan Tiley]

The air coming from the whistler has near zero pressure over atmospheric, as all of the air injected into the cylinder has very little restriction through the whistle to escape.  It's really just a tone generator and sound wave analyzer.  It would take a very high percentage of leakdown to have a measurable effect on the whistler (ie. valve stuck open, or bent valve).  High enough, in fact, that the engine would not likely be in the tech shed getting whistled in the first place.  

[Sean - MiataCage]

So..... Here's what I'm getting from all of this:

 

2015 New SM Rules

 

1. Compression is now free because the Whistler is protestable for accuracy and operator and CC'ing can be done outside of MIT or NASA.

2. Computers for VVT cars are free because the security issue from the immobilizer won't allow them to be swapped and the National tech office says they can't check computers anyway.

 

Were kinda starting to sound like the Gov't on some of this stuff.  We have a million excuses why things can't happen.  If we are all smart enough to figure out how to cheat some of this stuff then we should be smart enough to figure out a process on how to enforce the rule book in a reasonable and cost effective way.

 

Sean

[Mike Collins]

So..... Here's what I'm getting from all of this:

 

2015 New SM Rules

 

1. Compression is now free because the Whistler is protestable for accuracy and operator and CC'ing can be done outside of MIT or NASA.

2. Computers for VVT cars are free because the security issue from the immobilizer won't allow them to be swapped and the National tech office says they can't check computers anyway.

 

Were kinda starting to sound like the Gov't on some of this stuff.  We have a million excuses why things can't happen.  If we are all smart enough to figure out how to cheat some of this stuff then we should be smart enough to figure out a process on how to enforce the rule book in a reasonable and cost effective way.

 

Sean

 

The VVT immobilizer can be beat  .....  meaning there is a way to get a VVT ECU that doesn't not require the security feature...

[FTodaro]

I think we are where we should have been anyway, come up with specific instructions on using the whistler, it must be specific. Set Cubic inch. to 112.3 for example (as i have seen different numbers used) covers off, what ever else we need to list in the procedure,  if you blow more that .01 over, You will be DQ'ed

 

If you are, you can appeal by requesting motor CC'd You likely have to tear it down so it can be done (runoffs they will do it) other major races or regional you are likely going to have to do it to prove your appeal.

 

No one wants to discuss compliance fees, but the longer you make the list the more difficult it is to get consistency and competency in the field.

 

If you blow over at any race other than the runoffs, and you think that it should be up to SCCA to do the CC process to prove your disqualified that is where we will have issues. Most regions will not be able to pull it off, thus if we expect that level of service we need to consider paying for it.

 

Another two cents. I am up to a buck.

[Jim Drago]

Frank

The whistler needs to be set at 112 or 113,  so we have to round.  Second .01 over is an accident waiting to happen. I think some of the newer whistlers go out two decimals, mine only goes to one decimal point.

 

I think it is important to remember the end goal here.  Do we want to catch people? My opinion is we want to stop things that are out of the box. If a car is supposed to be 9.5.  You should be allowed 9.6 with the whistler with no issues.  If it flickers 9.7 and stops on 9.6, have a nice day. If it stops on 9.7 or higher, you should receive an RFA.  Then it will be up to the competitor if they want to pull apart and CC.  I think 9.6 is within reason of someone who pushed to the edge and is not over.  

I think we are where we should have been anyway, come up with specific instructions on using the whistler, it must be specific. Set Cubic inch. to 112.3 for example (as i have seen different numbers used) covers off, what ever else we need to list in the procedure,  if you blow more that .01 over, You will be DQ'ed

 

 

[Mike Collins]

I think if you are over by .2 it goes to RFA and automatically get retested 1 hour later.  Temperature in the motor and the skill of the operator have a lot to do with it.  I can do a pretty warm motor if I move quickly.  I know for a fact that my number will be close but not exact...it's more of a go/no-go number to me....  With the engine at ambient I can get you a real, repeatable number...  If you are still over after the second test you get the automatic option to CC at the owner's expense, not the clubs, or get DQ'd.

 

I only know a handful of guys that can whistle a warm car on a good day and only one of them works in the tech shed at the runoffs and not on Miata's......

[FTodaro]

Frank

The whistler needs to be set at 112 or 113,  so we have to round.  Second .01 over is an accident waiting to happen. I think some of the newer whistlers go out two decimals, mine only goes to one decimal point.

 

I think it is important to remember the end goal here.  Do we want to catch people? My opinion is we want to stop things that are out of the box. If a car is supposed to be 9.5.  You should be allowed 9.6 with the whistler with no issues.  If it flickers 9.7 and stops on 9.6, have a nice day. If it stops on 9.7 or higher, you should receive an RFA.  Then it will be up to the competitor if they want to pull apart and CC.  I think 9.6 is within reason of someone who pushed to the edge and is not over.  

I was mistaken, currently if you are .01 its a pass so Agree with Mike .02 over then its a fail.

[Jim Drago]

I was mistaken, currently if you are .01 its a pass so Agree with Mike .02 over then its a fail.

one too many decimal places.. 

.1 and .2

Jim

[FTodaro]

one too many decimal places.. 

.1 and .2

Jim

Damn i am no good at this.