411 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

Are we talking about a Reg.or at a Nat. ( major) level ?

Most of his races are with NASA Texas, he has gone to the NASA Nationals each of the last 4 or 5 years.  

[MPR22]

And Pat, I don't recall anyone ever saying anything to warrant the "so dominant" remark. You erroneously imply what has never been claimed during this debate.

Actually it has been implied by those asking to increase the compression and to oversize the piston.  That would imply the 1.6 is being dominated and in need of a serious modification to be competative.  Granted there have been only a few individuals asking for said modification.  

 

You might also take the comments (paraphrasing) that a 1.6 can't compete at a Majors as evidence the 99+ some people feel it is a dominant car.  And those that champion the idea that a more representative sample of the SM population, which would include more 1.6's should be winning at Majors would also imply the 99+ is dominant.  

 

Do i really believe the majority of those posting or even reading these posts believe the 99+ is dominant?  No, but there is a very vocal minority that will try to convince the masses that creeping the performance of the 1.6 up slowly is too little and too late and want big action now.  

[Tom Sager]

Is the 99+ dominant?

 

[Steve Scheifler]

OK, but I tend to call BS on hyperbole even when it's meant to offset hyperbole.

I was one talking about compression, plus a torquer cam. Not because I support the idea, but because together they are one of the few (only?) ways to effectively address the underlying issue that comes up most, the need for more torque without adding top-end. The point being, if we then rule those out for cost and other reasons, we can admit ONCE AND FOR ALL that there is no magic bullet to "add torque so the 1.6 can compete heads-up with the 1.8". Only then can we stop wasting time on all the nonsense ideas and take whatever next-best steps are possible.

[B(Kuch)Kucera45]

If they get it right what else would we have to talk about on this sight ?

Oh I get it,that's Jim's plain all along ! Lol

Jim you should start advertising on this sight,you could make some good extra cash with all this activity !

[Sean - MiataCage]

Sean,

 

At MSR Houston and at TWS top flight NAs can battle on even footing with the NBs at least when the NAs are driven by "young guns" that have come up thru kart racing.  I am not sure why, but it may be that karters develop quick hands and the NA, being a less settled platform, requires quick reflexes to keep them on edge.  That being said, Gale Corley is always near the front at TWS in his NA, usually finishing in the 2nd thru 4th.

 

Just a comment for all to think on.  When a NA finishes 2nd or 3rd at TWS out of 40 entries, and when 25 of those entries are NBs, then how can we say that the NA is not competitive?  After all, the NA beat all but one or two of the '99s.  If the 99s are so dominant why didn't all of them beat the NA.

 

Pat

 

Well with those data points there is absolutely nothing else to talk about.  You and Gale solved the entire problem.  Thank you!

[Sean - MiataCage]

Actually it has been implied by those asking to increase the compression and to oversize the piston.  That would imply the 1.6 is being dominated and in need of a serious modification to be competative.  Granted there have been only a few individuals asking for said modification.  

 

 

In the discussions I have been involved in, the ONLY reason for talks of compression etc at this point is because the vocal majority will not accept adding some weight to their cars which leaves the powers that be little choice in what to do next but to try to improve the 1.6L instead of fix the weights.  I would categorize this a a be careful what you wish for type of deal.  Weight/Plate will be the easiest for all involved, but if the majority won't consider weight then something else will be done which is where you now hear about o-size pistons, compression, computers etc.  ALL in my mind not necessary if we can come up with a fix with weight/plate which I believe that you and I agree on a starting point for.

 

I promise you this issue will not go away.  Something will be done to help the 1.6L as the entries and 2nd group entries are too important to SCCA as well as Mazda.  There are several groups focused on a fix right now, so the idea that there isn't parity has long been passed over.  The powers that be are on to solutions for an admitted problem.  They are not in a do we have a problem phase.

 

Sean

[Cnj]

Well with those data points there is absolutely nothing else to talk about.  You and Gale solved the entire problem.  Thank you!

Sean, why the sarcasm? Pat simply put forward his perspective. You certainly don't hold back on presenting yours - usually as undisputed fact might I add.

CNJ

[Sean - MiataCage]

Sean, why the sarcasm? Pat simply put forward his perspective. You certainly don't hold back on presenting yours - usually as undisputed fact might I add.

CNJ

 

There was zero relevant data.....  In order to solve the issue at hand we need relevant data not subjective interpretations of what may have happened.  As has been said by many others here, not just me.  Race results on any given day mean nothing without some details.  Basic details.... What sanctioning body, What tire, who showed up, was it wet or dry, etc, etc, etc.

 

I don't post often (148 posts in 13ish years) and I don't talk or post about things I know nothing about.  I actually know something about this topic which is why I am posting.  If I have said something that is not accurate, please point it out and I will fix it.  If you are taking what I say as fact that is certainly up to you.  When I post, I post on MY experiences with the products and the team that I have and operate.  I try to back up those things with data....  As I have stated from the beginning here the tire circumference changed and that hurt the 1.6L more than the 1.8L's.  

 

I believe the parity with the Toyo was as close as it ever was at multiple tracks throughout the country and to fix this problem the 1.6L needs only a little bit of help.  I kept quiet for the last couple (Hoosier) years because the racing was very good and it didn't seem time to upset the apple cart.  After the Compression Gate and STR Gate it seemed to be to the right time since we were fixing other issues to get the 1.6L right.  I have also said that someone smarter than me can calculate what that circumference difference did to the 1.6L car.  David Dewhurst....... Can you do this?

 

There is already enough smoke and mirrors going on in this class (Compression/STR) and I think it's appropriate that we finally put some facts and relevant data on the table to fix it.  We got into this situation because people were able to influence the rules to where the 99/00 was brought up to the 1.6 and in my opinion slightly beyond the 1.6. 

 

Saying that Billy won on Sunday against 99's means the 99's are not over dogs is nothing other than subjective opinion.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion it just seems like here we go again with things that are clouding the waters.  This thread is now 21 pages long and most all of it is subjective reasons why the 1.6L doesn't need anything.  That ship has sailed and barring a major change of heart by the mothership the 1.6L is going to be getting something.  I say this because of the discussions and team I have been asked to provide input to on how to fix the problem as well as the most recent request for input from SCCA.

 

Instead of continuing to debate if the 1.6L needs help or not, its time to understand the the 1.6L is very likely going to get some help, so maybe we should all work together to come up with a solution that is best for the entire class and not just 1 iteration of the vehicle.

 

Pat Ross..... If I offended you please accept my apology.  Offending you was not my intention.

 

Sean

[Ron Alan]

To Seans point about circumference of the Hoosier, pretty sure you need to also consider the weight(4/32...best grip, RA1...1/32 and lighter to start with)and the width...or patch on the ground. All have to be factors.

 

And Sean...I will be corrected if i'm wrong but i believe your post total is since the site became Mazdaracers in 2011? Which sadly shows I have no life and yak about many things I know nothing about   

[Sean - MiataCage]

And Sean...I will be corrected if i'm wrong but i believe your post total is since the site became Mazdaracers in 2011? Which sadly shows I have no life and yak about many things I know nothing about   

 

Good Point.... I forgot about the site change.... 

[pat slattery]

What is wrong with speeding up the 1.6 and than loosing weight and bigger plate on all the other cars if they need it?  You can lower the 1.6 all you want but most wont gain anything because most can't make a lower weight without a rule adjustment to remove weight that is not allowed at this point