270 replies to this topic

[Todd Green]

Johnny,
 
And if I follow my plan about not caring about qualy and work on the things I need to, there won't be anyone behind me faster.

Ah grasshopper, you assume your racing fate is dictated by only your own actions. Often leaders are taken out in the qualifying races or fast guys have mechanicals etc.  There can be fast people starting from the back due to reasons that have nothing to do with you.  To twist a phrase, "No plan survives contact with turn one."  One other thing about lap times.  Often the leaders will be running near quali times and running in a train til near the end of the race (though not always, especially not if they think yellow or red flags will be coming out early) whereas mid/back packers tend to want to race each other darn near every corner and tend not to be able to run nearly as close as their quali pace.  It makes it more likely to get lapped in a race that what quali lap differentials would indicate.

 

That being said, sounds like you have the right attitude going into the event.  Hope you have a great time!

[MotoFusi]

This might be the very best thread I've every read. I can't believe it's three pages deep. I read it from beginning to end. Thanks Mr. Lamb. I appreciate the time and effort.

 

Bump to the top!

[MotoFusi]

Todd, in an earlier post you said you were going to test a 99 and an 01 back to back. What was your impression comparing the 99 to the 01? Would you drive them any differently?

[MotoFusi]

Todd, what books would you recommend?

[Todd Lamb]

01 vs 99. The VVT's (01-05) have a little more torque. You can feel it even at part throttle driving around the paddock. In terms of driving, the main difference is in throttle application. With a 99 you can be a little more abrupt with the throttle, as it doesn't have the VVT's more immediate effect of transferring weight to the rear tires. Or put another way, with a VVT you have to be more patient and gentle with the throttle roll-on.

Books: Prepare to Win and Tune to Win are great books, but less to do with driving. There are a number of books on driving, all serve the purpose of teaching the basics. The only real downside to the books is that they are written for high HP car driving, not for momentum cars, so some of the techniques are different once you get into the advanced area of the learning curve.

[FTodaro]

Todd what is your impression of spending the money, or usefulness of I racing, beyond entertainment? 

[Jamz14]

Frank,

 

I am very interested in Todd's opinion of that as well. But aside from the usefulness from a driver skill point of view, I have found that Iracing seems to be very accurate in setup changes. Meaning, the response from the sim seems to be textbook when making setup changes. The baseline setups tend to have a lot of understeer in them as you would expect. And changes made to correct appear to be exactly what I would do in the real world to correct. So if nothing else, Iracing would seem to help a driver understand what corrections to setup he might make to dial the car in to his or hers preference. Though the sim response to setup changes tend to be linear and not as subtle and nuanced as you find at the track.

 

The opinion of someone that just moved past rookie status in the real world.

[Todd Lamb]

Simulators can teach focus/concentration and can give a pretty good visual for learning a new track, but without any real seat of the pants feel I don't find them very useful for replacing seat time.

 

I went so far as to try one of the fancy full-motion, triple screen simulators made here in Atlanta ($40k price tag) and was not impressed with the feel. No correlation to real world when it comes to driving a car on the edge.

[LarryKing]

Vaguely related comment: I saw a recent interview of Mario Andretti (Leno's Garage) who said he never walked a track.

[Jim Drago]

Simulators can teach focus/concentration and can give a pretty good visual for learning a new track, but without any real seat of the pants feel I don't find them very useful for replacing seat time.
 
I went so far as to try one of the fancy full-motion, triple screen simulators made here in Atlanta ($40k price tag) and was not impressed with the feel. No correlation to real world when it comes to driving a car on the edge.

I am going to save this and use it to explain why I am so bad on them

[FTodaro]

I have not done it recently, the last time i did a sim it was way before I Racing. Just wondering if i am missing the boat, I know some folks feel its helpful.

 

Just what i need is another racing expense

 

I would think that it helps recall a new track but I still need to spin my car a few times to find the limit.

[Jamz14]

I wanted to give Todd time before commenting on the driving aspect of the sims.

 

I think the main advantage is working out different lines and approaches to corners. That and developing a type of muscle memory that I think can be useful. Accelerate rolling on throttle, brake, downshift to 3rd, start releasing brakes, turn in.....rolling on throttle, shift to 4th , etc again and again building that reflex memory for any given track. Low cost driver tune ups and practicing. No different than visualization. Visualization is probably the most underutilized training tool for racers. We all take advantage of whatever track time we get, but are we taking full advantage of lower cost training tools even if they are ultimately not as effective as actual track time? In any sport there is a diminishing return for visualization. Todd probably has so many laps at every track that he has an integrated muscle memory for them. However, diminishing return does not mean no return. Diminishing returns are very important when doing cost benefit analysis. But the cost of doing this training is fairly insignificant so even a diminishing return is enough for me to value it.

[FTodaro]

I wanted to give Todd time before commenting on the driving aspect of the sims.

 

I think the main advantage is working out different lines and approaches to corners. That and developing a type of muscle memory that I think can be useful. Accelerate rolling on throttle, brake, downshift to 3rd, start releasing brakes, turn in.....rolling on throttle, shift to 4th , etc again and again building that reflex memory for any given track. Low cost driver tune ups and practicing. No different than visualization. Visualization is probably the most underutilized training tool for racers. We all take advantage of whatever track time we get, but are we taking full advantage of lower cost training tools even if they are ultimately not as effective as actual track time? In any sport there is a diminishing return for visualization. Todd probably has so many laps at every track that he has an integrated muscle memory for them. However, diminishing return does not mean no return. Diminishing returns are very important when doing cost benefit analysis. But the cost of doing this training is fairly insignificant so even a diminishing return is enough for me to value it.

Can one of the moderators paste this to a new thread, hate to walk on Todd's good work.

But, i would be interested in knowing

what are the options of sims, pros cons

what is the min. level of investment, what do i need to buy

How does the on line group thing work?

 

Remember, i am a 50 ++ guy not as computer savvy.  

[38bfast]

What I have seen is us old farts don't get nearly as much as the young hot shoes out of a sim. I am with Todd that the seat of the pants is a crucial part missing. 

 

On a Sim I can spin on a straightaway, haven't done that yet in real life yet. Well unless I get some help. 

[MotoFusi]

I can say that I had never been on Road Atlanta in my life. I drove it every night for two weeks before I went to a two day Chin's to drive the Miata for the first time. I really felt I knew the track before I got there except for the drop off the hill to 12 and the turn itself. It took me a dozen laps before I felt comfortable to flat out it as concrete walls mean nothing in Iracing LOL.....Oh and the lip on the gator out of 6 is taller than it seems in the sim.........

 

Todd, in addition to learning a track I think it does wonders for race craft and drafting. Just my opinion. I raced 9 times over the weekend, sometimes in my skivvies. LOL

 

I am 57, raced flat track, motocross and road raced motorcycles for 20 years. I quit racing sprint cars in 08. Iracing filled the need to compete for a while. The wife hated the sprint car races. I got rid of the wife and I'm going racing again!  I don't think I have the balls I had at 20 or 30....Or even in 2008. I have no delusions of greatness but I want to see how good I can get. I also want to keep the skills I have for as long as I can.

[Danny Steyn]

I know this is Todd's thread, but personally I believe that sims like iRacing are incredibly valuable in many ways. Track knowledge, reference points, lines through corners, muscle memory and more.

 

But for me the best part of the iRacing Sim is that I can do a set of corners hundreds of times without doing the entire lap. Go through the sequence of turns, check my exit speed at a fixed reference spot, slow down, turn around, go back and have another stab at it, try a different brake point, turn in point, look at a later apex and more.

 

In the August race at Daytona, I was as always pretty mediocre through the bus stop, but after about 2,000 bus stops in various cars, I arrived for the Runoffs test days and was immediately one of the faster guys through the bus stop. What I discovered in iRacing absolutely translated onto the track. 

 

Apart from experimenting with lines, the other aspect that also translates incredibly well from iRacing to the track is the setup changes. I am normally within 0.2% cross weight of where we end up on my cars for each track. You can easily see what works and what doesn't by doing large swings in both directions, and then dialing back to the setting that feels the best.

 

For me, I honestly feel that I get hundreds of hours of totally relevant seat time for a next to zero investment of $$$$. If I had to pay for the seat time that I gain through iRacing, I would more than quadruple my racing budget. And that is a huge advantage. If anyone wants advice on iRacing setup please feel free to PM me. Sorry for the hijack!

[MotoFusi]

I appreciate any advise on setups you'd like to give!

[Kevin B]

I've used iRacing in preparation for driving a new-to-me track when I first started and only "knew" Roebling and Road Atlanta.  Initially, I would then use iRacing sessions at Road Atlanta to baseline how the sim responded relative to my known in-car experiences there and then moved immediately to the track I needed to learn.  Did so for ~30 hours in 2009 with just a single screen and cheap wheel before running in my first 13-hour at VIR.  All of the visual cues were where I expected them to be and I then made adjustments rather than bulk learning that weekend.  It Really helped during the night practice/race stints. 

 

I've used it ever since.  And, from a fun factor, it's nice to be able to jump in an MX-5 Cup and spend 20 minutes in-sim practicing on a random weeknight at a track I won't ever likely drive IRL. 

[Jamz14]

Can one of the moderators paste this to a new thread, hate to walk on Todd's good work.

But, i would be interested in knowing

what are the options of sims, pros cons

what is the min. level of investment, what do i need to buy

How does the on line group thing work?

 

Remember, i am a 50 ++ guy not as computer savvy.  

Frank,

 

I was kinda waiting to see if they moved this topic to respond.

 

"what are the options of sims, pros cons" -  IMO the two options are Gran Turismo and Iracing. Of these, I think Iracing is the better simulation. Iracing is computer based and Gran Turismo is playstation based. Getting into all the pros and cons would be a lengthy post, in general, the iracing sim is more realistic as a training tool and I think they try harder at making it more accurate and reflective of real racing. For example, you can test, practice, qualify, time trial in Iracing. You will find the structure intuitive. You also suffer consequences for running off track, colliding with other drivers , etc. That makes it more realistic to me and less game like.

 

"what is the min. level of investment, what do i need to buy" - For Iracing you need a computer and an internet connection. You don't need some fancy computer. I run it on a fairly low end laptop with a display cable to a TV monitor. You also need some sort of control device. A force feedback steering wheel and pedal box. I can't remember the brand I use, GT force something or another. I think I paid around $100 for it. You also need your iracing subscription. That is $10 a month. Right now you can buy an entire year subscription for $50.00 . That will get you going. However, the base iracing package download doesn't include all the cars and tracks. Additional content is usually around $15.00 for a new track or car.

 

"How does the on line group thing work?" - Im not exactly sure what you are asking here but......... you have licenses and iratings. These determine what races you can enter. At certain times of the year you are eligible for promotion to a new license level. As long as you have competed in enough eligible races, and have kept your safety rating above a certain level, you will be promoted to the next license level. You enter different types of sessions for each of the race types. Practice is just that. You are alone on the track and you can test and tune without impacting your safety ratings. Qual happens at prescribed times that are listed and these are group sessions. Offs and contact during a qual session affects your safety ratings. Races also happen at prescribed times of the day and are group sessions that affect your ratings. There is a warmup and then a griding. Most road races are standing starts though some are rolling starts. You are gridded according to your qual time as compared to the other entries or your Irating I believe if you didn't participate in qual. Then you race!!! Sometimes there is only a few of you and sometimes you have packed grids. I can't describe to you how the points work for the seasons. But you are awarded championship points based on your placing and you accrue them just like in the real world. In the lessor series you get jokers screwing up peoples races, but as you go up in level, I have found that the people get more serious and respectful. Both the sim and the people strive for it to be as representative of the real world as possible.

 

You can also host your own races. You choose the track and race parameters and you can have an open hosted race that is open to everyone, or a password protected race where only the people you provide the password can join.

 

Im 50 and I don't find it complicated to understand or to compete.

[Todd Lamb]

Time to resurrect.

 

Questions? Comments?