270 replies to this topic

[Chris Ashcraft]

I am headed to Summit Point for the first time in my 1.6, any advice before heading there. (I am a Mid Ohio boy)

[Bench Racer]

You asked:

 

Started car racing a Spec 7 in year 2000 at 58 years old through year 2005. Learned, had fun set a track record at Blackhawk Farm. Crewed E, F prod and Spec Miata for 5 years. Built Spec Miata and have raced it off and on for 5 years.

 

I don't drive deep enough into corners. Have never been off track with car and have never spun car and get passed entering corners which kind of supports not deep enough into corners. Last fall at the Blackhawk Farm with a mid 50 year old driver the car did laps 2 seconds off the track record on tires with a BUNCH of heat cycles, it ain't the car. Thank you for any thoughts. If age (74) is a large percentage of reason for not entering corners deep enough, it's ok to say, I can live with that.

[Tom Scheifler]

Any tips specific to driving in the middle of a many (4,5,6) car train?

[Todd Lamb]

For any new track: watch in-car videos, get a copy of someone's track notes if they will share them with you (I provide to clients before events), and run a few laps on iRacing or some other simulator (this is, IMO, the primary benefit of simulators).

 

Summit Point is a handling/driving track - top HP for your class is not critical to going fast. Focus on getting T6 and T10 right, as they are the corners leading to the straights.

I am headed to Summit Point for the first time in my 1.6, any advice before heading there. (I am a Mid Ohio boy)

[Todd Lamb]

You asked:

 

Started car racing a Spec 7 in year 2000 at 58 years old through year 2005. Learned, had fun set a track record at Blackhawk Farm. Crewed E, F prod and Spec Miata for 5 years. Built Spec Miata and have raced it off and on for 5 years.

 

I don't drive deep enough into corners. Have never been off track with car and have never spun car and get passed entering corners which kind of supports not deep enough into corners. Last fall at the Blackhawk Farm with a mid 50 year old driver the car did laps 2 seconds off the track record on tires with a BUNCH of heat cycles, it ain't the car. Thank you for any thoughts. If age (74) is a large percentage of reason for not entering corners deep enough, it's ok to say, I can live with that.

 I think Jack Baldwin is 152, and he's still fast. So I will discount the age factor.

 

Pretty common issue - staying on the brakes too long. One technique the bike guys use (thanks Keith Code) is to just do a single gear drill, where you run laps in 3rd gear, for example, and focus on entry speed instead of a lot of braking and downshifting.

[Todd Lamb]

Any tips specific to driving in the middle of a many (4,5,6) car train?

Head on a swivel. That's a very tough and complicated spot to be in. Lots of situational awareness, reading what is about to happen, figuring out what the other drivers are thinking, looking for weaknesses, and jumping on any opportunity that presents itself to move up a spot while leaving yourself an out in case things get pear shaped. i.e. Controlled aggression.

 

Focus on the track and your marks, as opposed to the bumper in front of you. Look through or around other cars (offset if needed). Practice running side by side and running off line, so that in a pack you have more options and a better understanding of how much you'll need to check up to drive through a corner off line and still leave another car room.

[Tom Hampton]

I'm not sure if this is a legit question or not....

 

In the last year I've had a lot of opportunities to race in the rain and/or damp conditions (2015 was a really wet year here in Texas).  I qualify significantly farther up the field in these conditions versus the dry.  Most recently, at MSR-Houston, I qualified 10th out of 30 in the active rain, vs. 20th or so in the dry. 

What does that mean?  What can I learn from that to apply to my dry driving?

[Waterboy]

That means you have a lot of fast cars in Texas that for some reason "lose" power during the rain

 

Sorry Todd I should nto have butted in.

[Erik Hardy]

Background - Considering moving up in the Daq world to include brake pressure, throttle, and steering etc. I've never reviewed anybody's data like this before. 

 

How usable is the steering data? Other than "The Driver is sawing at the wheel" plots, what can this data be used for? What kind of interpretations can be made from steering angle plots? Can the data be used for more than; the steer angle is higher in turn 10 than it is in turn 15, so the car must be understeering in turn 10...? 
 

[Todd Lamb]

Tough question, since the answer requires a lot of speculation without data or observation.

It could mean you're better at finding the grip/rain line. It could mean you are able to easier find the edge of traction with a lower grip surface. It could mean you have a better rain setup (although with SM that's a pretty limited window). It may mean those 10ish drivers just suck in the rain. It may mean you're very comfortable with car control and high slip angles.

Racing in the rain is a different skill set than driving in the dry. Different car feel, different lines, different way of finding the edge and thus the speed. Rain is the great equalizer on horsepower, but also the great differentiator when it comes to driving styles.

I'm not sure if this is a legit question or not....

In the last year I've had a lot of opportunities to race in the rain and/or damp conditions (2015 was a really wet year here in Texas). I qualify significantly farther up the field in these conditions versus the dry. Most recently, at MSR-Houston, I qualified 10th out of 30 in the active rain, vs. 20th or so in the dry.
What does that mean? What can I learn from that to apply to my dry driving?

[Todd Lamb]

For SM the steering angle sensor isn't critical, and can be skipped if the camera is positioned to see the driver's hands. SM operates in a pretty small handling/setup window so usually if something is off it is quite obvious.

Brake pressure and throttle are very effective tools in order to dive into fine tuning driving styles.

Having said that, there are math channels that can compare steering angle to yaw or latG to give you a basic idea of what the car is doing. However a good baseline setup will get you 90% of the way there and driver feedback will give you the fine tuning from there.

Highly recommend attending an AIM seminar in your area to get more in depth on data. We host them in the winter at our shop.

Background - Considering moving up in the Daq world to include brake pressure, throttle, and steering etc. I've never reviewed anybody's data like this before.

How usable is the steering data? Other than "The Driver is sawing at the wheel" plots, what can this data be used for? What kind of interpretations can be made from steering angle plots? Can the data be used for more than; the steer angle is higher in turn 10 than it is in turn 15, so the car must be understeering in turn 10...?

[Erik Hardy]

Any Chance this could happen at the track? Perhaps at Mid-Ohio Majors? 

 

Highly recommend attending an AIM seminar in your area to get more in depth on data. We host them in the winter at our shop.
 

[Erik Hardy]

Another Question

 

After watching many many different in car videos from various drivers, it seems like some don't bother with rev matching? Whats the deal? Old dog, new tricks? It seems like when the clutch is released, the speed differential at the tires would upset the rear end of the car under threshold braking, especially in wet conditions? IS the potential for the brake pressure to dip due to a faulty Heel-toe event not worth the potential to upset the car?

[Todd Lamb]

Rev matching is certainly the correct way to do it. I am not sure why some people don't, but I don't because I do not have enough legroom in a Spec Miata to blip the throttle. Bigger cars, no problem.

 

So without the blip on downshifts, letting the clutch out slowly and gently is critical to avoid instability or rear lockup under braking. Also going through all the gears is important (as well as timing/spacing the downshifts) to keep the revs from dropping too much and too quickly.

 

I DO see a lot of brake pressure dips (or even spikes) on data during rev matching on downshifts, so it is something to pay attention to. Hard to see on longG graphs, but easy to spot with a brake pressure sensor.

[Todd Lamb]

Any Chance this could happen at the track? Perhaps at Mid-Ohio Majors? 

Not unless you want to add 2 days to your 4-5 day race weekend. Best to find one on an off-weekend.

[davew]

Poor downshift technique is the largest reason these transmission break. It is best to heel-toe rev match. As with Todd, sometimes you can not physically do it. Either too tall or bad ankles.

 

To compensate, you need to greatly exagerate the late down shift. Brake brake brake brake downshift turn.

 

This is very evident at the hairpin at Sebring. You are going from the very top of 4th gear to second gear. The brake zone is so bumpy that you can not do a true threshold brake. Thus the brake zone is veeerrrryyyy long in feet. If you downshift right after hitting the brakes you have problems. Wheel lock ups, transmission failures or just a spinout. You need to delay the downshift much longer than your mind seems to want. If you can not (or do not) blip, you must wait even longer.

 

Unless you have a physical issue, learn how to properly downshift. Not only do you save the equipment, but you sound like a cool race car driver.

 

NOTE: I rebuild transmission and am NOT a driver coach.

 

Dave

[Steve Scheifler]

In my case, a bit tall, big feet, and a messed up ankle. Perhaps like a lot of people my heel & toe is more like arch & roll. I press the brake with what should be the arch of my foot and roll the outside of my shoe down to blip the throttle. The bad ankle keeps that foot turned out quite a bit, which makes overlapping the throttle easier. Sometimes too easy, and i get some throttle when I want only brake. Makes for exciting corner entries!

[MPR22]

In my case, a bit tall, big feet, and a messed up ankle. Perhaps like a lot of people my heel & toe is more like arch & roll. I press the brake with what should be the arch of my foot and roll the outside of my shoe down to blip the throttle. The bad ankle keeps that foot turned out quite a bit, which makes overlapping the throttle easier. Sometimes too easy, and i get some throttle when I want only brake. Makes for exciting corner entries!

Same problems you described, play with pedal spacing and you will find a spot where you can roll to blip and not hit the gas under braking.  

[Jim Drago]

Right ankle has screws and plate in it, 1.5 times larger than left  and doesnt rotate at all  I keep mine pretty close and never go through transmissions, but I dont heel toe at all, but never skip gears on downshifts.. 5-4-3-2 if needed

[Steve Scheifler]

Same problems you described, play with pedal spacing and you will find a spot where you can roll to blip and not hit the gas under braking.

Yep, after first day on track with the car I cut the brake pedal arm off and welded in a spacer to move it over. But closer to the throttle, not further. Problem is that I can't turn the ankle to point straight ahead so getting them close enough to roll the center of my shoe over also means the toes are too far right. But I've adapted so it's rarely an issue unless I'm all tangled up anyway. I can manage it with stock pedals like when I drive Tom's car, it just gets painful after awhile.