45 replies to this topic

[Tom Hampton]

Disclaimer, I also DGAF about the legality of Dave's Cam bolts. 

 

the relevant rules seem to be: 

 

9.1.7.3.f  No relocation or reinforcement of any suspension component or mounting points is permitted.

 

 

9.1.7.3.g   Hardware items (nuts & bolts) may be replaced by similar items performing the same fastening function(s).

 

Debate away...

[Bench Racer]

There you go not answering again.. Compliant or non compliant to GCR please? I know it's hard as Dave is one of your guys.. if it were me, it would be a lot easier

 

Discalimer: I could care less about Daves cam bolts

 

If I were to declare compliant or non-compliant per the written rule intent, that would be way to much fodder for your guys.

[Jim Drago]

If I were to declare compliant or non-compliant per the written rule intent, that would be way to much fodder for your guys.

 

hypocrite

 

[hip-uh-krit] 

Spell Syllables

• Synonyms
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noun

1.

a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she 

does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

2.

a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private 

life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

[Bench Racer]

This would be "the pot calling the kettle black".

 

 

hypocrite

 

[hip-uh-krit] 

Spell Syllables

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

noun

1.

a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she 

does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

2.

a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private 

life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

 

 

[Parity]

This would be "the pot calling the kettle black".

 

Racist

[Alberto]

IMO, anyone who would protest this should have their man card revoked and play golf instead

[Mike Collins]

Final answer: They are legal...

[chris haldeman]

I'll add they are installed in the last car I built and work nicely.

[Bench Racer]

Paraphrasing: Hardware items are free as long as they perform the same function, in the same manner and do not perform a non-compliant function. The exception being internal engine components.

 

dave

I understand what your all talking about. No intent to protest. Only desire is to learn what makes these washers/cams legal.

 

Dave, fasteners are free per the rule and we should be using the GCR glossary definition of fastener.

 

Was there a FasTrack that allowed these washers/cams to be thicker?

[Mike Collins]

Bench you're out of your depth on this one...  They are legal...  Period end of story....  Its not even remotely debatable...  Read the rules some more.....

[Mike Collins]

4. Hardware items (nuts & bolts) may be replaced by similar items performing the same fastening function(s). 

The word "Fasteners" is NEVER used in the SM portion of the GCR as its listed in the CHASSIS section.... Please don't confuse this with what is listed in the ENGINE section...  Do some more reading!  Stop stirring the pot....  No need for FastTRack to spell this out, its already VERY CLEAR!!!!

[Bench Racer]

Mike, indeed I was reading in the engine area fasteners (nuts, bolts, screws, washers, studs, etc.) and not the chassis area hardware (nuts & bolts).  

 

Not stirring the pot, I'd call flat washers and lock washers hardware, but I wouldn't call cam washers which change the camber angle nuts and bolts hardware nor would I call the cam bolt normal nuts and bolts hardware referencing the hardware rule. The glossary has no definition for hardware and other definitions of hardware include many items well beyond nuts and bolts including computers.

 

 Serious question, how does one clearly know what is hardware and what is not hardware? A control arm is hardware, the spindle is hardware and the front hubs are hardware.   

[Ron Alan]

  

 

Not stirring the pot, I'd call flat washers and lock washers hardware, but I wouldn't call cam washers which change the camber angle nuts and bolts hardware nor would I call the cam bolt normal nuts and bolts hardware referencing the hardware rule. The glossary has no definition for hardware and other definitions of hardware include many items well beyond nuts and bolts including computers.

 

 

This is a good point. Having not seen Daves replacements(guessing they are just thicker), I would guess they are only performing a longevity factor and not a performance factor? We can buy from Mazda OEM front wheel/hub bearings or we can buy the HD version...similar concept?

 

History has told us "VERY CLEAR" can be blurry to some. Not a bad idea to have these little debates aired out. Just avoid the "T" word for awhile David

[FTodaro]

First off, any parts that we come up with that do not make the car go faster, but just last longer, thus cheaper, should never ever be the subject of a protest. It is withing the intent of the class to make this low cost racing. There are many examples of things on the cars that were just not designed for what we do to them.

[Bench Racer]

No protest, don't disagree with Franks post, just open discussion, understanding rules the reason for words within parenthesis succeeding hardware (nuts and bolts) is? 

[ner88]

I've seen washers ground down to gain adjustment..............

Personally, I would argue these are adjusters and not hardware.

[Jim Drago]

First

I appreciate and applaud Bench for actually given a real opinion and stating it clearly! 

 

Disclaimer: I could care less about these bolts and we get enough adjustment ( too much now with bushings) If we are talking compliant to the letter of the law. I agree with Bench,( did I really just type that )

 

These are adjusters and we are limited to FACTORY adjustments and bushings ONLY on camber. The shaft of this bolt is different, the washer is different. If there is .010 difference between the total distance(washer edge to edge of the shaft) , they provide an adjustment that is non compliant ( I don't know this to be true btw and Dave says it is not) 

 

Again, how closely do we want to go with the nonsense?  Just a good discussion, nothing more nothing less. 

Jim

[Mike Collins]

As long as Dave's nuts and bolts provide the same fastening function and don't do anything else they are legal.  Anything else would be described as a mechanical advantage.  If Dave's nuts and bolts adjust the same as stock ones all is well with the world.  And remember there are at least 5 different versions of stock ones and they are not all the same....

[Jim Drago]

[Tom Sager]

First

I appreciate and applaud Bench for actually given a real opinion and stating it clearly! 

 

Disclaimer: I could care less about these bolts and we get enough adjustment ( too much now with bushings) If we are talking compliant to the letter of the law. I agree with Bench,( did I really just type that )

 

These are adjusters and we are limited to FACTORY adjustments and bushings ONLY on camber. The shaft of this bolt is different, the washer is different. If there is .010 difference between the total distance(washer edge to edge of the shaft) , they provide an adjustment that is non compliant ( I don't know this to be true btw and Dave says it is not) 

 

Again, how closely do we want to go with the nonsense?  Just a good discussion, nothing more nothing less. 

Jim

We haven't had a debate about valve stems yet.  Maybe that's next?