1001 replies to this topic

[Todd Lamb]

We all knew the cars were different when we started in SM. When I got my first SM I had to make a decision on what year. So did everyone else. If you aren't happy with your choice, get a different car. At that point you're splitting hairs and clearly we're all talking about top prep cars, correct?

 

Why should we be changing rules to allow hybrid cars? If we did allow NB suspension on NA cars, I would expect some type of weight penalty for the NA's to account for the perceived improvement. So what would we have ultimately achieved in regards to cost savings, safety, or improved parity?

 

If it's not broke, there's no reason to fix it (can't wait for the first person to use that against me out of context).

[Steve Scheifler]

Believe it or not, there wasn't always a choice of chassis! But don't get us started on that topic.

And if keeping the 1.6 relevant is part of the goal, isn't this consistent with that?

[MPR22]

Without much fan fare, the original effort to get the cars closer in weight has reversed itself...why is that? Simple...it helped! 

 

3 years ago(4?) in the last major parity adjustments, one of the objectives was to get the cars as close in weight as possible. That was achieved but time has proven that this didnt turn out as expected. The fact that the current adjustments have moved the weights farther apart has helped the 1.6...has it gone far enough? Granted...what was not expected was how the bigger heavier tires that we went to has affected the lighter car...and it does not seem to affect the heavier cars...at least proportionally.

 

As the NB cars development has improved, it seems to overcome the efforts to slow it down. Along with the adjustments that may make the 1.6 car race better(heat soak)maybe the NB just go back up in weight? The restrictor changes affected the top end in the NB but not so much the torque. VVT got 25lbs back...maybe it really needs 40lbs and the 99 20lbs? Yes...this wont be popular...but I heard NO ONE complain when the VVT got back 25lbs!!! 

I complained, the decision was completely arbitrary and based on cars that probably had compression gate heads.  Now that they are all legal how do the VVT results look compared to the 99? 

 

sorry this was off topic.  The 1.6 should get cool air tube wrap, turn signal and 1 lb bottle of nitrous so they can pass at will until they blow up. 

[Johnny D]

I complained, the decision was completely arbitrary and based on cars that probably had compression gate heads.  Now that they are all legal how do the VVT results look compared to the 99? 
 
sorry this was off topic.

Yea off topic but...

You were winning before ??
How many wins after the change ?

Just asking.
J~

[tburas56]

I arguably had the best 1.6 going, that video was from 2011 or 12. My question? How much better are the 99s? The 99 car was pretty new back then, have they gotten better? HP/Trq. Not sure the 1.6 could get much better…

[MPR22]

Yea off topic but...

You were winning before ??
How many wins after the change ?

Just asking.
J~

2 in 99s including a Major both at TWS.  

4 in my VVT 2 at TWS and 2 at MSRH. 

 

The data shows that I can win at TWS in either car so it must be the driver. 

[Todd Lamb]

Believe it or not, there wasn't always a choice of chassis! But don't get us started on that topic.

And if keeping the 1.6 relevant is part of the goal, isn't this consistent with that?

The 1.6 is relevant now, and no it doesn't require a suspension change and added weight to compensate. You think you have a torque problem now, wait until 100# is added to compensate for "better" handling.

[davew]

The 1.6 is relevant now, and no it doesn't require a suspension change and added weight to compensate. You think you have a torque problem now, wait until 100# is added to compensate for "better" handling.

 

Is the perceived better handling with the NB suspension going to offset the perceived lake of torque?????

[Johnny D]

2 in 99s including a Major both at TWS.  
4 in my VVT 2 at TWS and 2 at MSRH. 
 
The data shows that I can win at TWS in either car so it must be the driver.

After the added weight?
So really nothing to complain about, you're getting the same result.

Competition in a 1.6 or 1.8 getting closer to your bumper ?
J~

[Jim Drago]

Interesting the NA 1.8 folks never get into the 99 suspension gossip.

In today's "see what I want to see edition" search under Sagers posts. I think Rons car is also an NB 1.8

[MPR22]

After the added weight?
So really nothing to complain about, you're getting the same result.

Competition in a 1.6 or 1.8 getting closer to your bumper ?
J~

The weight cost me a race at the same track in my VVT.  As the race went on, 40 mins vs 25 the VVT got greasy and I had to work much harder to beat the competition.  Same competition in my 99 I have 3+ seconds margin of victorys in both races vs .3 seconds.  I would say there is a difference with the extra weight.  

 

I love how everyone wants to say its all apples to apples.  We are never going to get there in any of the cars.  It will always be a compromise and if you are fortunate enough to be able to afford multiple models you can choose the best car for the track/conditions.  I will only race my 99 at TWS going forward as it is the superior car.  At MSRH i think the VVT still has a slight edge, at many other tracks the 99 is the best because it can pass at the end of the straight were my VVT struggles.  Road Atlanta, TWS, VIR to name a few, take that weight off and I might be able to get out of the corner just a bit better so I can get a better tow and make the pass.  

[Todd Lamb]

Is the perceived better handling with the NB suspension going to offset the perceived lake of torque?????

1+1=3

[FTodaro]

The weight cost me a race at the same track in my VVT.  As the race went on, 40 mins vs 25 the VVT got greasy and I had to work much harder to beat the competition.  Same competition in my 99 I have 3+ seconds margin of victorys in both races vs .3 seconds.  I would say there is a difference with the extra weight.  

 

I love how everyone wants to say its all apples to apples.  We are never going to get there in any of the cars.  It will always be a compromise and if you are fortunate enough to be able to afford multiple models you can choose the best car for the track/conditions.  I will only race my 99 at TWS going forward as it is the superior car.  At MSRH i think the VVT still has a slight edge, at many other tracks the 99 is the best because it can pass at the end of the straight were my VVT struggles.  Road Atlanta, TWS, VIR to name a few.  

So true, there will never be equality between, platforms, tracks, or drivers. As much time as we devote to the impossible.

[Johnny D]

The weight cost me a race at the same track in my VVT.  As the race went on, 40 mins vs 25 the VVT got greasy and I had to work much harder to beat the competition.  Same competition in my 99 I have 3+ seconds margin of victorys in both races vs .3 seconds.  I would say there is a difference with the extra weight.  
 
I love how everyone wants to say its all apples to apples.  We are never going to get there in any of the cars.  It will always be a compromise and if you are fortunate enough to be able to afford multiple models you can choose the best car for the track/conditions.  I will only race my 99 at TWS going forward as it is the superior car.  At MSRH i think the VVT still has a slight edge, at many other tracks the 99 is the best because it can pass at the end of the straight were my VVT struggles.  Road Atlanta, TWS, VIR to name a few, take that weight off and I might be able to get out of the corner just a bit better so I can get a better tow and make the pass.

So maybe a little 99 weight to make it greasy too ?

Just trying to make a nice fruit salad.
Something everyone can digest.
J~

[Johnny D]

So true, there will never be equality between, platforms, tracks, or drivers. As much time as we devote to the impossible.

Did we want to split more hairs and have Reg supps with weights, etc.
J~

[Johnny D]

Different Majors parity setting ? (attract more)
J~

[Jim Drago]

The best way to solve this is rewards weights By the time Lamb,Bolanos, Steyn and others have +150 stickers on their windshields, we will see much better parity with all cars, not just 1.6 to NB cars

[Ron Alan]

In today's "see what I want to see edition" search under Sagers posts. I think Rons car is also an NB 1.8

My car as a rental has always done well. Granted, it has had nothing but top West Coast drivers in it who were going to finish up front regardless of car(top 5)...but on those days when the best were in the field it has always been competitive. Other than minor set up changes on occasion, to a man no one has complained how it drove, in fact most loved it and set personal bests over there own cars.

 

Bottom line is I've never felt it would be appropriate to holler from the highest mountain when it is beating a majority of cars. i've always liked Tom's posts of course...and never going to argue the car is perfect. But the last 2 changes didnt hurt and the car is competitive. Its biggest downfall is the earliest rev limiter which definitely hurts its racing ability at certain tracks...but take the good with the bad!

[Ron Alan]

I complained, the decision was completely arbitrary and based on cars that probably had compression gate heads.  Now that they are all legal how do the VVT results look compared to the 99? 

 

sorry this was off topic.  The 1.6 should get cool air tube wrap, turn signal and 1 lb bottle of nitrous so they can pass at will until they blow up. 

For what its worth...a top VVT and 1.6 went head to head last week out west...and at the end of the race both got beat by a NA1.8!

 

Ok...thats racing and traffic played a role in the outcome but...

 

The VVT set fast race lap and was able to motor past the  1.6 car when it got the opportunity. It had a new head(half to assume legal)after Laguna runoffs. The NA1.8 motored past the 1.6 as well. When out front the 1.6  was faster in the corners but never enough at this particular track to pull away.

 

For the record(not a driver but listened to 100's), I've never once heard a driver say their car never got greasy when they were trying to maintain a lead or trying to run someone down! Once the tires reach that max temp and pressure(3-4 laps?), they will never feel as good again. The best/top drivers adjust for this...they also realize they are not alone! A 5% weight difference between cars may affect 1 cars tires more but 1% would seem negligible. Then again...my car going from 2400 when we started to 2350 now makes a difference 

[Ron Alan]

The best way to solve this is rewards weights By the time Lamb,Bolanos, Steyn and others have +150 stickers on their windshields, we will see much better parity with all cars, not just 1.6 to NB cars

Tax the rich baby...tax the rich!! Everyone needs a trophy!