268 replies to this topic

[tburas56]

Stopped racing my 1.6, it is not competitive anymore in the SEast division majors. 1.6 is fun but extremely difficult car to drive compaired to NB.

I dont know much about what the rest of the country is doing but the car needs some love.

 

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The level of driving in SM is something not seen in any other class, IMO, so even if the 1.6 became an overdog, to drive it for 45 minutes at the front is something else entirely.

[LarryKing]

 

Stopped racing my 1.6, it is not competitive anymore in the SEast division majors. 1.6 is fun but extremely difficult car to drive compaired to NB.

I dont know much about what the rest of the country is doing but the car needs some love.

 

 

Straight from the man that owned the top prep example everyone refers to. Any retorts?

 

PS: My new excuse - "extremely difficult car to drive compaired to NB"

[Tao]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.... ......all points well taken.

 

i will go back to the proverbial chalk board and try to set up my car better....and of course work on my driving.

 

however, somewhere along the way i bought into the whole affordable, "cost containment" thing...admittedly i would not spend the money to get my car up to national class level but winning the run-offs is not my goal,

 

since the poll is out there and the discussion is open, my vote is still for the "needs a lot of help".......at the very least it provides the budget race things to do to incease performance and have more fun out there weather competitive or not.

 

 

[Steve Scheifler]

Stopped racing my 1.6, it is not competitive anymore in the SEast division majors. 1.6 is fun but extremely difficult car to drive compaired to NB.
I dont know much about what the rest of the country is doing but the car needs some love.

No turn signal
Compression
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The level of driving in SM is something not seen in any other class, IMO, so even if the 1.6 became an overdog, to drive it for 45 minutes at the front is something else entirely.

Todd, why do you think the 1.6 is significantly more difficult to drive at the limit? Is it primarily the compromised geometry when the car is lowered? Now that we an get more camber up front without going so low, might there be a net benefit from running a bit higher? At the moment our cars are fairly high but the control arms & steering still start on the wrong side of horizontal, but we can't go up much more and still get enough rear camber. So again we are stuck between compromises and can't evaluate the trade offs between geometry and overall height.

[ECOBRAP]

Todd, why do you think the 1.6 is significantly more difficult to drive at the limit? Is it primarily the compromised geometry when the car is lowered? Now that we an get more camber up front without going so low, might there be a net benefit from running a bit higher? At the moment our cars are fairly high but the control arms & steering still start on the wrong side of horizontal, but we can't go up much more and still get enough rear camber. So again we are stuck between compromises and can't evaluate the trade offs between geometry and overall height.

 

Personally I don't think the car is significantly harder to drive. If anything it just reacts quicker, so your reflexes and car control better be on point.

 

That being said, and this has been brought up before, I feel the car is harder to race, maybe that is what Buras was trying to say? We'll see what he responds.

 

It is VERY hard to defend a position in a 1.6. If I take a defensive line into a corner, I will be lower in the rpm curve and the lack of torque will kill me on exit - I will very likely be passed on the straight. On the other hand, if a 1.8 takes a defensive line ahead of me, he can use his torque on corner exit to maintain his position. Because of this, there are some corners on every track where I will simply not attack a 1.8, even if I get a good run, because I know I will lose the side by side drag race off the corner and just slow us both down.

 

I agree with the majority of the poll, the 1.6 needs something, but not much.

 

edit: I feel this is a good time to repost my 1.6 parity comics

 

 

 

 

  

[SaulSpeedwell]

You should have just made a poll that asked whether you owned an NA or not ... LOL

 

IMO, the biggest thing that makes the 1.6 harder to drive is the lesser torque and the "heat soak" power loss ... thus requiring you to drive 10.5/10ths to hang on to the field.  I also think the 1.6 has always been looser (this is verified by the overall calculated wheel rates versus the other cars) and bitchier under braking. 

 

Some guys have no problem with the 1.6 inherent looseness ... but many do, which is probably why so many 1.6s run soft rear/stiff front.

[Tom Hampton]

Actually the voting is NOT divided down the ownership lines....

 

voted "Yes, needs a LITLE help": 

 

Bench Racer, Danny Steyn, Todd Lamb, Jim Drago, Mike Collins, Sean - MiataCage, NPiekarski, Ryan Wellman, Erik Hardy, Taylor Ferranti, Bruce Wilson, FTodaro, Jake Bailey, xsnsx, Walter Vetter, 38bfast, trimless, Jason J Ball, Diller, Duane Polsley, ToddW, Tom Sager, Chris D., Justin Casey, Tom Scheifler, Lmg511, Alberto, Team Nitro, Mark McCallister, davearm, cam, Brandon, Bi11, dmq, Sacslider, Kevin B, FinnStig, guest driver, Chris Fulton, OctaneNation, B(Kuch)Kucera45, JRHille, Den, av8tor, Andrew Stowell, Mike Babcock, Andy Mitchell, topgear3793

 

Without actually counting all the NB owners...there are quite a lot of tNB owners on the list above. 

 

I personally haven't voted, because I honestly don't know.  I have only been racing this year, and I have yet to exit a corner thinking I had a run and was going to make a pass only to have the pass fail because of a perceived (or real) lack of power/torque...or caught/followed someone to mid-corner only to have them pull me by a length or two when we clearly got on the throttle at the same moment. 

 

So, I have no personal evidence to support a "yes..." vote.  That said, I can't ignore the votes above from people who SHOULD know.  The landslide bipartisan vote for "a little help" that includes some of the very best in this class gives me pause from placing a "no, its fine" vote. 
 

[Johnny D]

Has anyone looked at a drag package for the NB's ?

J~

[Tom Sager]

Has anyone looked at a drag package for the NB's ?

J~

How about this one?

 

[Johnny D]

https://c2.staticfli...48926899b_z.jpg

J~

[Mike Tesch]

How about this one?

 

 

Thank God you finally came out of the closet Tom.  It's not "our little secret" anymore.  Good for you.  #PRIDE          

[Tom Sager]

Thank God you finally came out of the closet Tom.  It's not "our little secret" anymore.  Good for you.  #PRIDE        

 

Your snoring was a good defense.

[tburas56]

If all the above people think it needs some help, who has the power to do something about it? Everyone has pointed out the flaws of the 1.6. Heck my 02 makes as much tq as my 1.6 car has hp. Race craft won't make up for that...

 

So who has the power to make a change for the little car that could.

[Bench Racer]

 ^   

[Steve Scheifler]

The poll is 3+ years old. Some have voted or changed their vote recently but I expect you might get significantly different results today. I guess it depends on your definition of “a lot of help” but overall they seem very close and probably has an edge at certain tracks. I’m not suggesting that’s good enough for a legitimate top contender to settle for a 1.6, but nobody is forced to do that and the various NB versions aren’t identical either. I would have loved today’s level of parity and rules enforcement back when we were very active. I guarantee we would have found ways to race more often and would have enjoyed it a lot more. Not that it is perfect now, but given the inherent differences I’m not sure how much more can be done (with minor updates) without giving them a clear edge at some or most tracks to make them equal at others.

I don’t know what level of prep the cars used for shock testing were. Was there any useful feedback from those sessions?

[Pat Mcg]

The 1.6 still needs more.....   2 years since the changes...  Not a single 1.6 win in those 2 years in a HST by anyone..  Heck... not even sure if there has been a Majors win..  Didn't research that much.  There may have been a win at some 20 entry event...  IDK...  But, the only HST podium was by a cheated up 1.6 at COTA... (At least that's the rumors)..  but still... the cheated up car didn't win..  Hell, let the 1.6 run the cheat and make it legal..  and still... probably not win a HST..  Shouldn't be any major concern by anyone that a 1.6 would be an over dog..  Even when the 1.6 lays down a POLE sitting time..  Don't matter...  Heat soak will take care of that...  You can only make the car so wide... 

 

Grant the LW Fly wheel and allow removal of the drivers side headlight. THE MINIMUM NEEDED.

 

I have looked at so many data points.  Looking at VIR this year..It just can't get it done.  Track record at VIR for 1.6 is almost 2 seconds off a NB...  Top speed on back and front is 1-2MPH off NB... 

 

Be nice if we would re-visit this.. Seriously... whats the big deal but allowing a little more assistance. AGAIN.. NO 1.6 has won a HST!   first assist helped a little..  keep refining.. 

[Jim Drago]

  Track record at VIR for 1.6 is almost 2 seconds off a NB...  Top speed on back and front is 1-2MPH off NB... 

 

Be nice if we would re-visit this.. Seriously... whats the big deal but allowing a little more assistance. AGAIN.. NO 1.6 has won a HST!   first assist helped a little..  keep refining.. 

 

 

So are you saying you believe that the 1.6 is 2 seconds off the NB? If so I will say you lose ALL credibility with anyone on here who has any credibility. 

 

Just toss a few facts in for fun

 

You are correct, a 1.6 has not won "a" super tour, it has won two   As a matter of fact it won the only two it entered.. so if we want to cherry pick data, it needs to be slowed down as it has won 100% of the Super tour races it entered  You see how cherry picking out selective data doesn't really mean all that much and makes you seem a little like a @#$%^ ? 

[Pat Mcg]

So are you saying you believe that the 1.6 is 2 seconds off the NB? If so I will say you lose ALL credibility with anyone on here who has any credibility. 

 

Just toss a few facts in for fun

 

You are correct, a 1.6 has not won "a" super tour, it has won two   As a matter of fact it won the only two it entered.. so if we want to cherry pick data, it needs to be slowed down as it has won 100% of the Super tour races it entered  You see how cherry picking out selective data doesn't really mean all that much and makes you seem a little like a @#$%^ ? 

Which race?  I spend about 3 hours looks at all the race results? 

[Jim Drago]

Which race?  I spend about 3 hours looks at all the race results? 

Than you officially the worst person in using the internet.. You have officially taken my place.. 

 

Go to scca site, look up Hoosier super tour points.   Sutherland won Portland both days against leverone and Kicera.. You might get Kiceras opinion of how much help is needed. He had a pretty good view of the car. I believe he posted video.  

[Pat Mcg]

Low 2.14's for NB's..  All day long.    Have not been able to locate a time with a 1.6 anywhere close to that.. In fact... can't find anything faster than a 2.16..  Now..  I don't have the vast decades of experience you have and data...  Where am I wrong?