22 replies to this topic

[Jim Venable]

Red Line 10W30 or 40 has been my oil of choice for as long as I can remember. Unfortunately there are times when it isn't available at the lone distributor in my immediate area when unexpectedly needed. The same holds true for Amsoil, Schaeffer, Joe Gibbs and other specialty oils. Considering it's been a couple of years since motor oil options were discussed along with technology constantly changing, I figured an updated thread about motor oils would be helpful. 

 

So the question is, what readily available over the counter synthetic motor oil such as Valvoline, Mobile 1, Quaker State, Pennzoil, store brand and so forth are you using along with the weight?

 

As always, much appreciated,

 

Jim Venable

AKA -  Nice Guy Jim

 

 

 

[mvzante]

Always available on Amazon

 

http://www.amazon.co...s=redline 10w30

[davew]

Since I got to work early this morning, I will take a few minutes to type my opinion.

 

Disclaimer, I stock Redline 10-20-30 and 40 race oil all the time. I am a Schaefer distributer and also sell a lot of Royale purple.

 

Part 1; For a race car you want race oil. Street oils and race oils use the same base stocks, but the additive package is different. Street oils have additives for long life, high detergent, strict emmissions, gas mileage, and relatively low RPM. In a race environment, you do not want any of those qualities. In fact you want just the opposite in many cases. We change our oil regularly, want performance not MPG, and need the high RPM additives not found in street oil.

 

Part 2; Synthetic oil is still dead dinosaurs. Different weight oils have different size molecules. Imagine, 10w is golf ball sized molecules, 20w is tennis balls, 30w is basket balls and 40 is beachball sized. Pour your multi weight oil on the floor in a single layer of molecules/balls and lay a sheet of plywood over the oil. The big molecules are going to do all the work. If you have only one size molecule in that bottle, the work is shared among the entire bottle.

 

Part 3; Your engine builder has determined what bearing clearance you have. If you have golf ball size bearing clearance, you need golf ball sized molecules. Imagine the force required to squeeze a beach ball into the space of a golf ball. It will go, but it takes a lot of effort that results in heat and lost power. Matching the oil molecules to the bearing clearance is important. It is also almost free horsepower.

 

Conclusion; Since we can not measure the molecule size and most of us don't know our bearing clearance, what do we do? First, get a real oil pressure gauge and find out what your oil pressure is at the end of a session, fully warmed, at race speed (6500rpm). I have found 40-45psi to be the optimum number. Anything below that can cause engine wear. Anything above that is wasted power. Then adjust to a thicker or thinner oil as needed.

 

Dyno testing; I have tested a lot of oil on the dyno. And yes it does make a difference. We tested 19 different oils from all the big manufacturers on the same day, in the same car. I found a 9 horsepower difference between the best and worst. Amazingly the best and worst where different weights from the same company. Do not believe the commercials you see on NASCAR television and in magazine ads. Expensive is not always better. I use Schaeffer in all my cars, from front runners to backmarkers. I buy it in 55 gallon drums for use in the shop.

 

Even cheap Walmart oil will work. But this is one of those little things that seperate a 100% car from the rest. A high school teacher says "Knowledge is power". In this case "knowledge is horsepower".

 

dave

[wheel]

Summit Racing, which is a valuable sponsor of SCCA Club Racing, carries Red Line Racing oil.  Be sure, if you order from them - or anyone, that you get the Racing oil.  Red Line also sells non-racing oils.  I would only use a street oil in an emergency.

[Ron Alan]

Thanks for the thoughts Dave. So are you advocating a single weight race oil? And if so(assuming we all have to guess clearances) what weight would that be? Mobil 1(synthetic) seems to be in so many pits(available everywhere and reasonable)...are you saying this or any other "non-race" oil potentially can lead to shorter engine life? And if in fact we are using not "ideal" oil, what failure would you expect first?

[Diller]

I might as well pile on with the questions. What is your definition of "regular" intervals? Right now I am at about 2 hours (one race weekend) of run time between changes. Usually my races are a month or more apart but some are within a couple weeks and it would be great if I didn't HAVE to change between the events that are close to each other.

[wheel]

You don't have to change racing oil every weekend.  That is a waste of money.  

[davew]

What I do, you can decide if I am right or wrong.

 

When the oil looks dirty, I change it. Some engines that is 2 weekends, some it is 4. But I use some for thought. If a double weekend with a test day is coming and the oil is 3 weekends old, I change it even if it looks clean. Same idea if a one day one class event is coming, I will probably wait a week.

 

I agree with wheel, race oil does NOT need to be changed every weekend. If you insist on using a street oil in a race car, I would change everyweekend.

 

Reading directly from a quart of Redline 30wt race oil; "Also meets multigrade specifications for SAE 10w30"

 

Mobil 1 street oil at Walmart is +/- $7 a quart. Redline race oil is +/- $14 and Schaeffer race oil is $8 from me. If you get longer life, better additive package, and more power, is it really that hard to do the math and figure out which is better in the long run.

 

Remember we are trying to build the best possible RACE car. And even the brand or weight of oil used can add up to measurable differences in performance.

 

dave

[CARacer]

In cases when I have to top up and my preferred oil is not at hand:

Some people have told me not to mix synthetic and dino. Others have told me it doesn't matter.

Some people have told me not to mix different brands of synthetic. Others have told me it doesn't matter.

 

In both cases, the concern is long-term health of the engine, not necessarily maximizing power. What say ye experts?

[Michael Novak]

Three Ti-Speed engines all have run 5-30, 5-40 or a mix.   Mobil One or Pennzoil SYTH.  Zero Failures and all look great inside. Engine in my car lower end is 2.5 seasons old racing often. I believe they are all making good to very good power. We change it every other weekend no matter the practice pattern or anything else.

 

Real race engines need real race oil---From what we see it is overkill on a Spec Miata. We are not spinning the engines that high either...

[Jim Drago]

Three Ti-Speed engines all have run 5-30, 5-40 or a mix.   Mobil One or Pennzoil SYTH.  Zero Failures and all look great inside. Engine in my car lower end is 2.5 seasons old racing often. I believe they are all making good to very good power. We change it every other weekend no matter the practice pattern or anything else.
 
Real race engines need real race oil---From what we see it is overkill on a Spec Miata. We are not spinning the engines that high either...

same here..
have tested everything under the sun.. generally thinner is better but provides less protection.. You are wasting time looking for the best engine oil on dyno.. run 20-40 weight. We change every other weekend as well.
I sent in a lot of oil for testing.. never had any issue with Mobil one or Pennzoil.. I started using Pennzoil after Saul said it was a waste and I checked into it myself.
I had always run Redline, but it comes dark purplish.. It looks burnt or dirty immediately.. I like the wheat color of Penzoil as when it is dirty, you know. I can't tell you how many calls I got where I had to explain to customers they did not need to change their redline motor oil and it was not dirty.

[Todd Lamb]

Do you recommend 4 quarts or 8 quarts?

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Do you recommend 4 quarts or 8 quarts?

8quarts offers more protections when you have a goat Driving your car

[FTodaro]

I will throw in something different but not much.

 

I use Brad Penn #1 race oil 10/30, its a syn blend. its not that expensive, but i have had good results. never blown a motor or had any motor issues.

 

I change the oil every other weekend, no matter what. Its just a schedule. If I keep a schedule, i make less mistakes. I do it the same way every time. 

 

I cut the oil filter every change. 

 

I use Wix filters for a honda Engine, also buy them by the case,  they are larger, but the filter element and the pressure relief valve in the filter are consistent with the OEM Mazda filter.

 

I buy the Brad Penn from a friend who sells it to me wholesale.

 

IMO oil is cheaper than a new  motor there is no reason not to change often. 

[Johnny D]

I use Wix filters for a honda Engine, also buy them by the case,  they are larger, but the filter element and the pressure relief valve in the filter are consistent with the OEM Mazda filter.

P/N ?
J~

[Steve Scheifler]

...
IMO oil is cheaper than a new motor there is no reason not to change often.

Actually, a Ford study some years back found a higher wear rate with new oil than after it had some miles on it. If they ever concluded exactly why, I never read it. Maybe it takes a bit to knock all the corners off the golf balls and basket balls Dave described.

BTW, I actually like that explanation. But, who here has ever had or seen a confirmed failure, or even shortened engine life, related to the choice of oil brand or not changing it every what, maybe 4-6 hours? At an average speed of 80mph and then double that for the higher RPM, that's the rough equivalent of 700-1000 miles tops. Then factor in a richer AFR on average and higher oil temps. So I wouldn't call it ridiculous to change every couple events but I'll bet you could run three times that long on plain old Walmart Mobile 1 and not shorten engine life one bit. Heck, I'd bet almost as much on the auto store house brand dino sludge. Almost. A lot of race engines survived just fine for ages on less. And these aren't race engines, they just play one on YouTube.

The only way I can imagine a 9hp difference due to engine oil is running too low viscosity with HLAs, which we have done.

[FTodaro]

P/N ?
J~

http://www.fleetfilt...lter/51356.html

[mhiggins10]

And these aren't race engines, they just play one on YouTube.

 

[Jim Drago]

I use Wix filters for a honda Engine, also buy them by the case,  they are larger, but the filter element and the pressure relief valve in the filter are consistent with the OEM Mazda filter.

We use the filters from 99 Mazda Millenia. Same diameter, just a little longer.

[GregHub]

Great info Dave, but when you say to check oil pressure and "Then adjust to a thicker or thinner oil as needed", can you confirm my assumption that if the pressure is higher than optimal, you'd change to a thinner oil and if it's too low you'd change to a thicker oil?