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#121
Jamz14

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You might want to stop with the ad hominem snide remarks in every post then.

Todd, I thought I did that. I thought I removed all those from the last post when I asked for peace.

 

Not that it is important for this conversation (meaning I understand your point and actually agree with your view on Dynos. Meaning I understand you are not looking for them to be the be all and end all for tech); you dont need track maps or large boards to activate a GPS switch. All you need to do is to determine that the car is not in motion or is in motion.  As matter of fact you don't even need a GPS sensor to do it. You can do a simple switch on the hood being up, ETC ETC just like you have pointed out. GPS switching or G sensors or other non manual sensors are nice though in that the switch itself can be hidden and isn't manually controlled. You can post onboard and not see someone flipping a switch, ETC.

 

I think the middle ground approach works just as well at the regional level. I also think that it is sad that the impression is that everyone at the regional level can and do cheat all they want and that is ok because it is regional. The impression that regional cars are more cheated up than majors cars. With a structured tech program that meets the goals that Drago and others are asking for, I see no reason why that isn't appropriate at the regional level as well. The people here are smart. They can figure out a way to address both concerns; 1. The need to give competitors confidence that the cars are equal in general  2. The need to keep people that race for fun and have no desire to cheat or to spend extra time and money tearing down a car on a weekend they want to have fun.

 

As example, was it really necessary to tear every component of the running gear out of the teched cars at the runoffs if in fact they had been inspected to a program all through out the year? Could it not just have been gearboxes as example? Could it notjhave been just gear boxes if the heads were looked at at a different race, shocks at another and for a curve ball the whatever checked two race weekends in a row? Can that be done without moving to sealed engines? I think part of Jims point was that a problem arises and we go to fix it, the fix generates other problems that were anticipated. So we swing from fix to fix depending on which side you fall on the issue for that particular event. And that maybe a structured program would be better instead of fixing the problem de jour without considering that a different set of problems will arise and we will apply a crude fix to that problem and then the cycle starting all over again. I believe he is advocating a simple and structured program with the cost spread across all competitors. I have suggested something similar with a couple differences.

 

But I think it important to first consider the goals that we are trying to fix. I think the 2 outline points above do that. They correctly define the problem at hand. And if we design a solution to account for both at the same time, and a willingness to make corrections to it as we go, we will come up with a good compromise instead of fixing one point this week, and then the next point the following weekend. A knee jerk response of sealed motors and an over reliance on Dynos is not the solution in my opinion. The dyno seems like a good tool in a suite of tools including a structured program. The sealed motor suggestion well; IMO people know not what they are asking for with that. And in that I have a bit of experience as I come from a sealed motor class.

 

Just my long winded opinions.


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#122
Pat Ross

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To place us all on the same footing, I think all SM participants should have to disassemble their cars to the same level required for the Runoff's to renew their log book. Those spouting off because they never qualify for tear down could then share in the pain (cost).

#123
Pat Ross

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The above would weed out the mid pack and back marker cheaters. It is strange to me that you never hear the pointy end racers calling each other cheaters. Those comments always come from those that are non-competitive. JMHO.

#124
Tom Hampton

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How about the "methinks thou dost protest too much!" rule?  Better known, as "oh yeah?!  Take THAT!"

 

Anyone accusing someone else of cheating gets torn down? 

 

stones....glass houses....


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#125
Pat Ross

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Tom, I agree. Another approach woul be to require a payment of $500 to get your log book renewed. That would go to the compliance fund to pay for diasassemblies required by the SCCA at the Runoffs or Majors. After all when the SCCA requires a tear down they are, in essence, accusing the driver of cheating, and he has to prove he isn't. Isn't that a little backwards from our judicial system? If he proves he is in compliance his accuser (the SCCA) should bear the cost of making him financially whole.

#126
av8tor

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Wow, I think I am going to turn my new SM build into a NASA PTD car.  You SM guys are too tough a crowd for me. Cams, 11:1 oxygenated race fuel, decent dampers and a trick ECU would be more fun than an annual tear down.


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#127
Johnny D

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Av8tor, try NASA Sm, SCCA is a little hard core at times.

J~
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#128
Johnny D

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Pat, the thing is they are just checking. They don't need a reason really.

Competitors needed a bond before, not now.

On the flip side...

NASA Western Nationals... they saw nothing to lead to cheating. Top 6 or 9 were in 10th of sec. of each other in lap time.
They did nothing, asked the top 4 if they thought anyone was cheating, they said no.

People got upset, that such a thing could happen. "oh the injustice of it all"

J~
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#129
Pat Ross

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Johnny D, who got all upset, the crybaby non-comps. I didn't see any of the top 10 crying.

#130
Johnny D

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He's not talking to me, I don't want to piss him off more.

Just like the title says...
You could get torn down and pay 7k to put it back together in a rain race were tires made the difference or
nothing and you have those questions about did he cheat or not if your that type of person.
Do you really have to know ?

J~
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#131
Pat Ross

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No

#132
Ron Alan

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The above would weed out the mid pack and back marker cheaters. It is strange to me that you never hear the pointy end racers calling each other cheaters. Those comments always come from those that are non-competitive. JMHO.

I wouldnt go that far...there are some pretty heated rivalries at the front with some zingers thrown around on occasion!


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#133
Steve Scheifler

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The above would weed out the mid pack and back marker cheaters. It is strange to me that you never hear the pointy end racers calling each other cheaters. Those comments always come from those that are non-competitive. JMHO.


Actually, they do it a lot, just not out here in public. Maybe the glass house thing in the past, and builders not looking to start a flame war that hurts them all.
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#134
Ron Alan

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Pat, the thing is they are just checking. They don't need a reason really.

Competitors needed a bond before, not now.

On the flip side...

NASA Western Nationals... they saw nothing to lead to cheating. Top 6 or 9 were in 10th of sec. of each other in lap time.
They did nothing, asked the top 4 if they thought anyone was cheating, they said no.

People got upset, that such a thing could happen. "oh the injustice of it all"

J~

Well...that just went out the window...


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#135
Bench Racer

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Some pretty silly $hit being posted on THIS PAGE. The SM tech is what it is because of SM folks stepping over the line with rules.

 

Simple deal, how can any pro engine builder let an engine out of his/her shop with a valve un-shroud being out of spec? < That's an integrity question, not did doing it help or hinder the drivers position.

 

To those that believe they understand SCCA rules, go to the production car site and read the offending driver's post comments and the post comments from the tech official that wrote the RFA which was not upheld in F production.


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#136
MPR22

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On the flip side...NASA Western Nationals... they saw nothing to lead to cheating. Top 6 or 9 were in 10th of sec. of each other in lap time.They did nothing, asked the top 4 if they thought anyone was cheating, they said no.People got upset, that such a thing could happen. "oh the injustice of it all"J~


On the other hand at the NASA East Championships all of the top cars were dynoed nobody looked out of compliance yet once the invasive tech began a non-compliant car was bounced.

Dynos only catch the idiots that cheat their cars up to ridiculous levels. Invasive tech is an unfortunate necessity that VALIDATES the racers finishing position. The class is better for it and should bear some of the cost. NASA spot checks at there Nationals. The SCCA validates its front runners at the Runoffs and spot checks at the Majors. I would be happy to pay a little more to have more tech of the entire field not just the top 5. I have had the pleasure of racing from the back of many fields and can tell you the fastest cars are not usually the top 5. Do you think the guy that just got into racing paid top dollar for a legal car wants to get his ass kicked by the guy who knows he is never getting teached for P12. He paid the same entry fee and should get the same benefit of compliance checks as P1-P5.
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#137
Johnny D

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On the other hand at the NASA East Championships all of the top cars were dynoed nobody looked out of compliance yet once the invasive tech began a non-compliant car was bounced.

Dynos only catch the idiots that cheat their cars up to ridiculous levels. Invasive tech is an unfortunate necessity that VALIDATES the racers finishing position. The class is better for it and should bear some of the cost. NASA spot checks at there Nationals. The SCCA validates its front runners at the Runoffs and spot checks at the Majors. I would be happy to pay a little more to have more tech of the entire field not just the top 5. I have had the pleasure of racing from the back of many fields and can tell you the fastest cars are not usually the top 5. Do you think the guy that just got into racing paid top dollar for a legal car wants to get his ass kicked by the guy who knows he is never getting teached for P12. He paid the same entry fee and should get the same benefit of compliance checks as P1-P5.


I think there's a time and place for about everything, and I was showing it. YMMV on what's needed every time. Different strokes for different folks, etc, etc.

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#138
Jim Drago

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Wow, I think I am going to turn my new SM build into a NASA PTD car.  You SM guys are too tough a crowd for me. Cams, 11:1 oxygenated race fuel, decent dampers and a trick ECU would be more fun than an annual tear down.

but you will be racing ( well driving around with is more accurate) three guys and no racing. The competition is what we all want and there is none better than SM. The PT classes are not remotely close
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#139
Jim Drago

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To those that believe they understand SCCA rules, go to the production car site and read the offending driver's post comments and the post comments from the tech official that wrote the RFA which was not upheld in F production.

Can you link it.. I never go to that site or know where it is. I would like to read though.

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#140
mhiggins10

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Can you link it.. I never go to that site or know where it is. I would like to read though.

Yes please. :)


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