45 replies to this topic

[Todd Lamb]

So everyone is cool if we impose a $50 compliance fee at each race in 2016 and give it to the SMAC for a testing budget?

[FTodaro]

No Not yet, i would like to see if a sealing program is feasible, how it would work and what it could cost. I think its more costly to implement but may be less cost and less work for all, long term.

 

I do not know the answer that is the question.

[Jamz14]

A sealing program is a way to seal up things people don't want others to see and benefits the race shops. It increases costs for the average racer and ensures your gear isn't like your competitors and you will never know it. That said....... let's do it. Only way for people that haven't done a sealing program to know.

[LarryKing]

 

So everyone is cool if we impose a $50 compliance fee at each race in 2016 and give it to the SMAC for a testing budget?

 

Sure, as long as the SMAC is cool with publishing a public account of exactly what was tested, why, what the findings are, and how much was spent.

 

That's $50 per weekend, right? Not $50 per race?

[Tom Scheifler]

So everyone is cool if we impose a $50 compliance fee at each race in 2016 and give it to the SMAC for a testing budget?

I'm game to try it for 2016 (so long as we can continue the discussion and analysis after the decision is made).

Each race or once per event?

[Todd Lamb]

That wasn't actually a plan - just trying to get the conversation going.

Fee per SM entry - either all events or just majors?

What do we do with the money collected?

I will say that preliminary discussion of pre-season engine sealing seems to indicate logistical concerns and cost prohibitive to most. I wouldn't think we would use contingency money for sealing.

[MPR22]

I thought the 1.6 is fixed.  What else needs to be tested? 

[Michael Novak]

$50 per event is too much if it only a Majors fee. $25 for Majors and $15 for others.

 

Both Majors and Regional racers benefit from Compliance checks. Of any class that needs a compliance fee it is Spec Miata as it is by far the closest racing in the SCCA. 

[tom1977]

How about no fee at all? Ok, maybe as stated above $25 majors only maximum

[MPR22]

$50 per event is too much if it only a Majors fee. $25 for Majors and $15 for others.

 

Both Majors and Regional racers benefit from Compliance checks. Of any class that needs a compliance fee it is Spec Miata as it is by far the closest racing in the SCCA. 

Re-read his post above.  I read it as all the money goes to the SMAC so they can perform more testing not necessarily compliance checking at events.  I have a reading disability sometimes in that I see only the things I want to see. 

[Todd Lamb]

It is an interesting concept but no the money would not go to the SMAC.

[Todd Lamb]

It is an interesting concept but no the money would not go to the SMAC.

[Bench Racer]

I read your post to mean, SMAC testing potential solutions to known/unknown issues.

 

Did you actually mean event tech inspection budget similar to the CCC check?

[Todd Lamb]

Yes but that has not been discussed and as of right now it is not on the table. Was just trying to get the conversation restarted with a wild idea, not a realistic one. "Brainstorming". We need ideas.

[Tom Hampton]

I read your post to mean, SMAC testing potential solutions to known/unknown issues.

I would prefer to test all the unknown issues.

[Michael Novak]

Re-read his post above.  I read it as all the money goes to the SMAC so they can perform more testing not necessarily compliance checking at events.  I have a reading disability sometimes in that I see only the things I want to see. 

Re-Read Mine   ... Two separate statements. I think the fee is too high- period and it will cause lower car counts.  I think 99% of the cars will be 99+ cars at the majors, no matter what is given to the 1.6 groups.---Thus I have no want from my side to pay for more testing.  Compliance---I will pay for.

[Mike Collins]

Absolutely NO MONEY if the SCCA National Office administers the program...We still have missing money from last time!!!! If any program gets puts out for member input that has the club office administering the funds you will see the biggest letter writing campaign EVER...  it wont take much, normally a dozen letters or so is too many for the CRB or BoD

[FTodaro]

We need an SRF guy to come on here and post, there experiences. Anyone know anyone to invite to pick their brain?

[LeeHill]

All - posting here as an SR/SRF/SRF3 owner/driver (SR in 1994/5, SRF 1996 to 2014, SRF3 current) - not as BOD member.  

 

Since we're talking about SM engines here (primarily at least), I'll stick to engine compliance.  We have had almost no issues in recent years - at least at the pointy end of the grid.  The guys that run up front watch each other like hawks and know pretty quickly if something isn't quite kosher.  There have been issues in mid-pack and farther back, but most of those that I'm aware of were primarily guys trying to save money by not sending a motor back to Enterprises that had been zinged and instead just had the head redone locally.  

 

Our current compliance guy is Mike Davies - who knows as much or more about SRF as anyone in the world (and is the brain behind the Gen3 conversion) and it's "fear of Mike" as much as anything that keeps everyone honest.  When an issue is suspected, the normal routine is for someone to call Enterprises and suggest that there is a possible problem - which will normally draw a visit from Mike or Shannon (engine rebuild guy) at an event for some targeted checks.  This is how "flywheelgate" went down at Roebling Road 8 or 10 years ago with the result that 3 competitors were found to be running machined or alternate material flywheels.

 

We also have a significant power train penalty - 1st transgression is a warning, 2nd transgression results in permanent ban from the class.  Not very many folks have been banned.

 

Sealed motors: - logistics aside, sealed motors are (IMO) the way to go.  They will tend to increase entry level cost by setting a higher minimum cost for an engine - but they avoid the $$$$ spent in an engine horsepower arms race.  One way to approach it would be to create a sealed engine program and give some kind of incentive to sealed motor cars (or penalty to non-sealed motor cars).  Of course, the devil is in the details - as in who builds and seals the motors.  In SRFs case, we have Enterprises who acts as the "benevolent dictator".  One thing I will say is that a single source is crucial (could possibly be a single source for each type of motor (1.6,1.8,VVT).  Back in the Renault days, CSR's (licensed dealers) were allowed to rebuild motors.  Arms race started pretty much right away between CSR's in who built the best motor.  Enterprises took the rebuild business in house and things improved.  Near the end of the Renault days (when SRF was already a transition class), Enterprises had a fire which destroyed the dyno.  Multiple engine builders were allowed with motors having to go to a single specified dyno shop for testing and sealing.  Suddenly, there were lots of big motors again - isn't hard to figure out how and why.

 

Compliance fee - SRF has been paying it for years - generates 35k or so year.  SCCA passes that money straight to Enterprises which uses it to fund compliance (travel mostly).  No guarantee that they always spend every bit on compliance.  I'm sure that there are some years when they've spent more than the got in and other years when they spent less.  Bottom line is that there are very few compliance issues in the class today.  Very little complaining about paying the compliance fee amongst SRF drivers.  BTW - it is currently $20/weekend - Majors, Divisionals, Regionals, Enduros, ...

 

Lee Hill

SEDiv SRF3 #72

[FTodaro]

Thank you for taking the time to post Lee, its helpful to us to hear from someone with some real experience on the issue.

 

How does your program work with Transmissions and diffs, shocks, ECU's and other compliance items?

 

Also regarding the single source engine builder, how to they handle surges in demand. how long to you have to wait for a motor refresh in the spring or if you blow a motor how long would it take to get a replacement.