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Worth it to Build a New 1.6 Motor?

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#61
Tom Sager

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Show me. I'm seriously looking. Only viable donor I found guy wants $14k. There are three NBs in my area than would work for $5~8k. I paid $5800 for mine.

I don't want to have to de-f*** someone else's race car and I'm not putting $5k+ of fab work into a shitty donor.

There are plenty of good donors out there if your are willing to ship a car from the south or west. 


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#62
BNaumann

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How many donor miles would you consider too many for an NA build? Any different for an NB?


I wouldn't say any particular amount is "too many," but there is definitely diminishing appeal to me as the odometer goes up, no different NA or NB. It's not normal wear and tear but concerns about major service, poor maintenance or the effects of bad driving habits. As the mileage goes up I expect surprises and hidden costs. I really just want something factory tight that no one has messed with. I guess this is slightly more a concern to me on an NA because of 25 year old fragile wiring harnesses and whatnot.

What I would like to find is a sub-40k stock rustfree car in a neutral color for 5~6k. Not unheard of for an NB.

#63
Steve Scheifler

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What were the car numbers that were being compared? I would like to take a look at the laps.

Thanks

Not sure Dave will be back on tonight so if I may answer, Voytek drove his usual #72 NB car in group 1 (SM) and #16 in group 4 (SMT). As mentioned earlier, also take note of his times relative to Greenhill & Thomas as controls to help factor out changing conditions.
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#64
davew

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Sorry for the delay, spent yesterday at hospital with Ann.

 

I bought 5 1.6 donors last summer. One was great as it sat and turned into the blue 1.6 we built. I have a rough looking car that is great underneath. Needs a couple fenders and a bumper. Interior is trashed. With hardtop $2k. 2 others are southern cars, faded paint but very clean chassis. Ended up in the $4k range after delivery. All but 1 bought off ebay.

 

When dealing with 15 year old cars I expect to have to paint them. If not, I call it a bonus. I do not worry about miles. Everything is coming apart, so who cares. Pretty interiors and new soft tops just fill up my shed. Give me a high mile, faded paint car from Texas, Arizona etc and I am a happy car builder. Pretty, low miles cars from up north scare me.

 

The scenario mentioned a few posts back, still adds up to about $20k. But, that is still a 10 year old build. What condition is the cage in? How many times has it been wrecked? Every situation is different, but camparing a new build to a rebuilt used car is only so accurate


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#65
Johnny D

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Sorry for the delay, spent yesterday at hospital with Ann.

 

I bought 5 1.6 donors last summer. One was great as it sat and turned into the blue 1.6 we built. I have a rough looking car that is great underneath. Needs a couple fenders and a bumper. Interior is trashed. With hardtop $2k. 2 others are southern cars, faded paint but very clean chassis. Ended up in the $4k range after delivery. All but 1 bought off ebay.

 

When dealing with 15 year old cars I expect to have to paint them. If not, I call it a bonus. I do not worry about miles. Everything is coming apart, so who cares. Pretty interiors and new soft tops just fill up my shed. Give me a high mile, faded paint car from Texas, Arizona etc and I am a happy car builder. Pretty, low miles cars from up north scare me.

 

The scenario mentioned a few posts back, still adds up to about $20k. But, that is still a 10 year old build. What condition is the cage in? How many times has it been wrecked? Every situation is different, but camparing a new build to a rebuilt used car is only so accurate

 

How many miles ?

 

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#66
davew

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I really don't care how many miles. Everything comes apart, replaced or rebuilt. High miles keeps the price lower.


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Dave Wheeler
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#67
Todd Green

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But mostly for the same reasons stated again and again. They are old, now very old, more finicky to keep at peak tune, etc. Most of the people who have the resources and ability to be competitive have long since moved to newer models and are not interested in going back. People on their way up just naturally want a newer sexier car, not a seemingly more questionable and used-up older one.


I'd add that many choose to not cannot make weight in a 1.6 to that list (along with the better suspension geometry and torque advantage that others have mentioned as far as drivability).


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#68
Tom Hampton

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Hey...I lost 60 lbs just so I could make weight in my 1990.  Can I vote for dropping the weight to 2150, now?


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#69
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I'd add that many choose to not cannot make weight in a 1.6 to that list (along with the better suspension geometry and torque advantage that others have mentioned as far as drivability).

Soooo, we've read lately that the 1.6 is capable of getting the job done. Leave it at that for the moment. Lets hear how much these cars/drivers weigh that are over weight.

 

EXAPLE:

My 1.6 weighs 2020 pounds with 1 gallon of usable gas and 2 gallons of cool suit cooler and water. Anybody need an SVRA car?

Driver weighs    200 pounds. (Not to be in same weight category as GREAT JOB Tom, I've lost 18 pounds since Jan. 1st) 

2275 - 2220 = 55 pounds.


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#70
Tom Hampton

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When I rebuilt after the wreck at TWS last year, I ended up having to add about 20 lbs of ballast to the passenger floor.  I think I weighed 157 at Hallet in June (without gear).  After triathlon season, I'm at 149-150 now. 

 

I'm starting to think about prepping for 2018...so, I'll have to reset the ballast equation again.  Maybe I'll get square corner weights.  :banana:


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#71
speedengineer

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For my 1.6... I weigh 150, have 50lbs ballast bolted to the floor, and have 5 or 6 gallons of gas in the car just to make weight.  Based on that math, you could weigh around 236lbs. 

 

But, considering that you typically aim to cross the scales with a ~10lb margin, and my car has an easy 5-10 lbs to take out (door skins, triangle glass windows, sound deadening), I think you could race a 1.6 if you weighed 250lbs.  No cool suit though. :)


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#72
Tom Hampton

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For my 1.6... I weigh 150, have 50lbs ballast bolted to the floor, and have 5 or 6 gallons of gas in the car just to make weight.  Based on that math, you could weigh around 236lbs. 
 
But, considering that you typically aim to cross the scales with a ~10lb margin, and my car has an easy 5-10 lbs to take out (door skins, triangle glass windows, sound deadening), I think you could race a 1.6 if you weighed 250lbs.  No cool suit though. :)


Hmmm...Sub 2000 lbs dry is pretty light.  I haven't seen many people claim to get below 2k over the years.  There are a couple of luxuries in mine (4L fire system, 1G-Cool suit) that add some weight---But, not 50 lbs worth.  I also have a wheeler cage, which I know is a little heavier than is possible.  Of course my luxuries are right on top of the ballast...so, same-same. 


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#73
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Tom, without the two gallons of water/cool suit container (17 pounds) and approx. 15 foot of extra tubing (21 pounds), my car 2020 pound car would be sub 2000 pounds.


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#74
Tom Hampton

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I'm not saying its not possible.  Just unusual.  DaveW says his 1.6L cars weigh 2040 (back in 2011).  I've never weighed mine bone-dry, no ballast, no accessories...so, I don't know for sure.  But, doing the rough math:

 

Race Weight: 2275 lbs

-------------------------------

Gas:                     6 lbs

Cooler:               10 lbs

Water/Ice:            8 lbs

Driver:              157 lbs

Gear:                 20 lbs

Ballast:              20 lbs

firebottle:           15 lbs

---------------------------

Sub total:         236 lbs

 

Dry weight:     2039 lbs

 

Give or take the width of a brick.


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#75
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Come on Dave, what's your new 1.6 weigh?


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#76
OrangeCrush86

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I have scales and my 90 weighs 2070 with no ballast and 1 gallon of fuel. My passenger door is not gutted.


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#77
Steve Scheifler

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I think cages are a pretty significant difference. But beyond that, to use a cliche, the little stuff adds up. I’ve forgotten the exact number but a torsen conversion adds quite a few pounds besides being arguably less mechanically efficient. I don’t mind the weight back there but prefer the MC LSD. Something you may not think about are newer suspension parts. The original front lower arms have bigger “lightening” holes and no internal bracing. Later arms have smaller holes and a long U beam welded inside, and later still have a large inner plate. You cannot get the original arms from Mazda anymore. I have the weights written down somewhere but it is over one pound per arm. And of course besides scale weight, this is unsprung weight. Upper arms have gone through similar evolution with larger strengthening pieces underneath. Rear uprights also differ a bit with extra metal on some that I assume is for mounting ABS sensors. I don’t recall whether there are differences in rear arms, I wasn’t ever concerned about too much weight back there. Not everyone runs the SD exhaust so that can easily make a difference of a few pounds either way. Then you can renew arguments about undercoat and sound deadening or how much of the airbag system can be removed and other minutia which might add up to a couple pounds. Previous times this has been discussed people suggested that later 1.6 chassis were inherently heavier. I can’t confirm that but I wouldn’t be surprised if some strengthening was added after the first year or two.

Someone trying to build the absolute lightest possible 1.6 and willing to go minimalist on everything including the cage can definitely get under 2000 finishing weight less driver.
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#78
Cnj

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Given that this thread has drifted afield... I thought I'd push it further.

It's been a while since I drove a 1.6, but when I did, I had a blast. Light and highly responsive, if not positively "darty" into corners. A bit of a handful on occasion to be sure, but fun. My 99 is also more fun when I remove ballast, but is still a good bit heavier than a 1.6 and feels more stable (less responsive?) on some corner entries/mid corners. My suspicion is that the 1.6 suspension bump steer design is the difference, but I've never had the chance to run both cars at the same weight - to discover whether it's the weight differential or the suspension differences that generate the behavioral variations at corner entry and mid corner. I wonder if any others (Steve?) have ever run 1.6's back to back with one car having NA front suspension and the other with NB suspension? Or run a 1.6 and 99 at identical weight?

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#79
Dave D.

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I'd like to get feedback from any that has driven a "hot rodded" NA car. An NA an NB front suspension built for DE or TT( just for fun). I am curious what the "updated" geometry would feel like in the much lighter chassis. I am not really for allowing updates/backdates in the class, just want to know if difference is subtle or pronounced.


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#80
davew

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I'd like to get feedback from any that has driven a "hot rodded" NA car. An NA an NB front suspension built for DE or TT( just for fun). I am curious what the "updated" geometry would feel like in the much lighter chassis. I am not really for allowing updates/backdates in the class, just want to know if difference is subtle or pronounced.

 

I did this 10+ years ago. Small difference but noticable. Don't think it was notcably faster, but was noticably different


Dave Wheeler
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