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Is it just me or does random tech seem not so random?

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#41
MPR22

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Tom, I get what you are saying. But I don't hear people saying that wasn't my shaft. If so, no problem. But Jim and Chris don't seem to be saying that. They are saying they are allowed to machine their shafts. Jim, no we shouldn't let tech off the hook and allow competitors to be harassed. My point is that that seems a technicality that doesn't seem to be critically relevant when there doesnt seem to be a dispute that your shaft and Chris shaft were "remanned" (altered). And bench is right, disingenuous to say that it was allowed before cota. It was allowed specifically after cota. Imo, mostly to give the bird to NASA. It was not specifically allowed prior to.

I can reman and service a shaft without grinding. How about oil pumps? Can I reman the oil pump and grind away the openings?

 

 

I can reman and service a shaft without grinding.

 

but its so much more fun if there someone to grind with


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#42
Jim Drago

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Chris, are you asking who decides if they get torn down? If so, it can happen two different routes; tech inspector, any competitor can pay $25 to have a specific part to a specific rule looked at. I do think, don't know for sure, that if found compliant the person that requested it has to pay for the tear down and rebuild.

that's not what he is asking :scratchchin:


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#43
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Jim, maybe I am wrong but I didn't see power numbers above 130 being touted 8 years ago.

But I am often wrong.

This is just silly.  What dyno, what atmospherics, what engine.............

 

The damn things are nearly the same, they have had to work 2x as hard to get the same results but these things are tapped out.  The last car to be truly buffed up with the builders was the VVT and I promise you the VVT wins the Runoffs this year.  It is maxed out finally after 6-7 years of trying to figure out how to keep the damn things happy. 


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#44
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Back to the thought of random.  If the tech guys had no idea who built the engine, what engines would be teched?   

 

If you want to understand the gotcha mentality of NASA ask Jim what it was like to win a race and then be told he didn't have the proper patch on so he was DQ'd when the directors new damn well that he didn't have it on and didn't say anything during, warmup or qual. 

 

 I get it a rule is a rule but the arbitrary nature to which they are applied by NASA is ridiculous. 

 

I admittedly chuckled a little at the time as I was pissed at Jim, but my own petty behavior shouldn't be the standard of a "professional" organization. 


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#45
Jim Drago

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Tom, I get what you are saying. But I don't hear people saying that wasn't my shaft. If so, no problem. But Jim and Chris don't seem to be saying that. They are saying they are allowed to machine their shafts. Jim, no we shouldn't let tech off the hook and allow competitors to be harassed. My point is that that seems a technicality that doesn't seem to be critically relevant when there doesnt seem to be a dispute that your shaft and Chris shaft were "remanned" (altered). And bench is right, disingenuous to say that it was allowed before cota. It was allowed specifically after cota. Imo, mostly to give the bird to NASA. It was not specifically allowed prior to.

I can reman and service a shaft without grinding. How about oil pumps? Can I reman the oil pump and grind away the openings?

 The guys were kicked out because a technicality :)  We will not agree here james.. It is not right or fair for either the competitor or sanctioning body to break the rules. You can't just explain it away and say its OK because we got the bad guys. The rules are there for a reason on both sides.  Both sides should be equally accountable. I guess we will agree to disagree here although you have no case.  I have stated for the record after the appeal was final that I did mine with intentions of making them looser for real or potential benefit. Not denying that or dancing around it, I cant and wont speak for others.  But as I said hundred of times and done after this one. You can't allow remanns to be done and not allow me to do the same thing. Spec a stock axle only if that is all you what you want permitted. Send in a letter requesting.   Unfortunately that is NOT, was not the rule when we ran the NASA champs, nor is it now.  

Jim, maybe I am wrong but I didn't see power numbers above 130 being touted 8 years ago.

But I am often wrong.

Sure you did, I believe that was before the smaller plates?  I don't see many now.  How many 130's did you see at Nasa champs? I think my 126 was king? 

 

 

Why does a remanned shaft NEED to be ground?

 Why do you need to surface a flywheel? Brake rotors? You are right, you don't need to.. But removes imperfections and makes a better finished product  

 

 

And to your next question.. Well why do you machine your flywheel down to min weight instead of just until its flat?  :)


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#46
Jim Drago

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If you want to understand the gotcha mentality of NASA ask Jim what it was like to win a race and then be told he didn't have the proper patch on so he was DQ'd when the directors new damn well that he didn't have it on and didn't say anything during, warmup or qual. 

 

 

You mean when I was ripped off the podium literally like a criminal because the duct tape came off my SCCA patch but was still on covering my Hoosier patch? In front of my wife, daughter and two couples that we invited to come watch the race?  Yeah that was "fun"  :)


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#47
tLinder

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MPR22, we call BS :bs: .  We really know you're sole purpose is to get the instigator badge.

Is it just me or does it seem that the tech officials seem to have a builder dujour that they "randomly" tech at the big events.  I have seen Dragos cars targeted, I have seen X-Factor cars targeted and I assume Rossini has been targeted in the past.

 

It doesn't seem very random when they pull 3 random cars from the same builder at one event. 

 

 

At this point I am not sure who would race NASA as their tech process has been shown to be uber flawed.  Even if they don't follow their own rules they have a couple of lines in the CCR that basically say all decisions are final and there are no trials, no appeals just a firing squad.  

 

SCCA has a much more structured protocol of infractions, appeals and more appeals. At a minimum you at least get your day in court.  I applaud the SCCA for trying hard to keep up with all the latest cheats and to keep things clean but If what was suggested over on another page is true and NASA's liaison to the SMAC is directing the SCCA's testing does that taint the SCCA with NASA's stink?   

 

And as a friend of mine once said, "I do zero weekends with NASA because they SUCK!"

 

truth be told, I was executed without trial or appeal, so they SUCK!.  

 

All tech should have written guide lines that the officials can follow.  Random Inspections should be truly random.  Allow you the right to defend yourself/car in some sort of appeals process.   


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#48
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Tom, I get what you are saying. But I don't hear people saying that wasn't my shaft. If so, no problem. But Jim and Chris don't seem to be saying that. They are saying they are allowed to machine their shafts. Jim, no we shouldn't let tech off the hook and allow competitors to be harassed. My point is that that seems a technicality that doesn't seem to be critically relevant when there doesnt seem to be a dispute that your shaft and Chris shaft were "remanned" (altered).

I have a different perspective. An organization the prescribes rules of conduct it is expected to follow them. Especially in a situation like that where you are going to take away a significant contingency. You better do it by the book. It better be by clear rule violations that everyone is on notice of. The harm that results is the loss of credibility of the organization. Because if the organization can't follow the process and the written rule,  its becomes Random, which is my way of bringing this comment back to the topic of the post, lol.


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#49
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They did not feel anyway possible to make that call with 100% certainty. 

Potato, Patato


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#50
Tom Hampton

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Tom, I get what you are saying.


No. You clearly do not.

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#51
Tom Hampton

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Chris, are you asking who decides if they get torn down? If so, it can happen two different routes; tech inspector, any competitor can pay $25 to have a specific part to a specific rule looked at. I do think, don't know for sure, that if found compliant the person that requested it has to pay for the tear down and rebuild.


No. Chris is asking who does the physical act of inspection and determining compliance. If Xav inspects his own engine.... There might be a conflict of interest.

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#52
Tom Hampton

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MPR22, we call BS :bs: . We really know you're sole purpose is to get the instigator badge.


He's not gonna get it with as polite as he is being!

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#53
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In the interest of transparency.. I think it is common knowledge I was not too happy after Atlanta when they pulled me, Preston and Danny in for Tear down at 3:00 in the afternoon on a Sunday with both Pardus and I having 8-10 hr drives ahead. What further bothered me was in last 12 months or so less Runoffs and the one west coast supertour .. they pulled only four other heads all year at Sprints.. Again me, Danny, Preston ( Random) and Brown(Random) I publicly stated that if I had another weekend with 2-3 cars and I was one of them... Less the Runoffs, I was taking a DQ and not pulling my personal engine apart? I suggested then that they needed to spread the love to multiple cars and multiple engine builders.

I will say it again.. IMO, No one builder should get the bulk of the heads at any one event less the runoffs ( it is what it is there). I had three at 18' Sprints, Two at Atlanta this year. Then the Sprints this year, Chris had two heads and I had another with Bruni and they skipped me and Brown, while it may seem odd , I get it. they had seen us already multiple times. Watkins I thought was good.. They did winner who happened to be a builder that had not been teched yet to my knowledge, Brunis from Road America and Ciufo.

I may be in the minority.. But I think tech should be 'somewhat" random.. If they have seen multiples of mine, Chris etc and passing.. they should perhaps move to other builders that are doing well. They did that this weekend, it worked well as Elivan won and passed. They have a few other cars from a few other builders on the podium that have to my knowledge never been checked. They would be one of my list of "randoms" From there forward.. Not sure I would continue checking Danny if/when he wins if he has already passed in this year. "I" would record what engines are in what cars in first open hood qualifying session. Pick a random in top 20 from whichever builder(s) you want to see. That keeps the top 20 on their toes, not just the guys who are used to being on the podium and passing. This is solely my opinion. When you no longer have any you haven't seen, go 100% truly random.

But if the question is do you think they wanted to see Chris car after NASA Champs, I would say yes, thats accurate :)


It is hard to say someone shouldn't be torn down because they were down the race before when the guys being torn down have been found non compliant in the past.

Just my opinion but anyone at the front that knows if they are torn down and won't be again there is a green light to take a liberty.

Tech needs to randomly tech everyone regardless of possition or builder. There are many cheats some don't have anything to do with an engine builder.

It does not take an engine builder to slot a control arm, hog out a rp, run illegal fuel, run a light weight wheel, have switch to kill amd alternator etc etc and so on.

Does it suck to be torn down over and over yes I'm sure it does. We all signed up for this when we voted to collect $20 compliance fee, hard to cry later we are getting to many exams.

I am not for sealing as I do believe it will be bought off to be defeated.

Tires much harder to know what number tire stickers you will end up with before and event and who is gonna print matchi g stickers at the event " dont that that's happening"

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#54
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It is hard to say someone shouldn't be torn down because they were down the race before when the guys being torn down have been found non compliant in the past.

Just my opinion but anyone at the front that knows if they are torn down and won't be again there is a green light to take a liberty.

 

 

Knowing what you know about how hard it is and the time and money required to get a truly great motor in Sm, You really think any of us that have a good head would dare touch it?  I can't see the logic of taking a race winning head off and swapping for a cheated up one either assuming you won't be teched. Why? We are winning with a legal one?  I have heard this before, but when you stop and think about it, that argument IMO does not hold water. I have run the same cylinder head since mid 2015, it was second or third attempt after 14 Runoffs. I don't dare do anything to it but lap then change the valves and springs every 12-18 months and don't dare recut them, just lap them in.  I dont say dont tech them, but looking at the head again seems like a waste of time and money. Look at crank shaft, trans, rear end.. computer.. 


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#55
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Knowing what you know about how hard it is and the time and money required to get a truly great motor in Sm, You really think any of us that have a good head would dare touch it?  I can't see the logic of taking a race winning head off and swapping for a cheated up one either assuming you won't be teched. Why? We are winning with a legal one?  I have heard this before, but when you stop and think about it, that argument IMO does not hold water. I have run the same cylinder head since mid 2015, it was second or third attempt after 14 Runoffs. I don't dare do anything to it but lap then change the valves and springs every 12-18 months and don't dare recut them, just lap them in.  I dont say dont tech them, but looking at the head again seems like a waste of time and money. Look at crank shaft, trans, rear end.. computer..


I am not saying that you should have a head taken off every week, that's silly but not should you get a pass in the tech shed. If many knew they would not be looked at there are many other things they would do.

To me the tech list should be ever changing, but it seems over the years once they go to teching stuff they just keep doing the same thing over and over.

One year I think it was 2015 my car was stall tested like 10 times... There were plenty of other things they could have checked that year.

And I am in NO WAY saying having 10 stall tests done is equal to have your head removed even once let alone multiple times.

I fully expected to have my head removed with the season I had in 2015 but I was terrifically lucky!

I also was not implying that you or any other front runner would pull a great cylinder head to replace it with a cheated one, but possibly someone would swap motors that could be cheated up to save their good legal motor from wear. And if they were not going to be looked at at all there are other things that would be easy to do as well

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#56
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I am not saying that you should have a head taken off every week, that's silly but not should you get a pass in the tech shed. If many knew they would not be looked at there are many other things they would do.


I believe that is what they are doing now. We are still getting teched.. pulling computers twice, stall test several times, plates, shocks and a host of other things, just not head multiple times.. Which agree or disagree .. I am definitely a fan of that :)

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Ok, I'll let you all get back to your busy remanufacturing jobs. Curious though why you all haven't included turning down the shaft to lighten it up if you are so righteously axle reman houses. It couldnt have anything to do with that being apparent and not under a boot. I mean scca has specifically allowed this now right? If you are a reman shop it is what you decide that sets the rules for what is allowed right? Don't just be followers of other remanufactures, be a leader and bring forth a quality product. You can justify turning it down by saying it is removing the rust you find on old stock axles. Who is to say how much turning is needed.

Can I have a royalty on all you sell seeing how I am now a genius in finding a performance gain that is allowed by the scca?
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Tom Hampton

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Jamz-

I don't understand your obsession with the issue of Half-Shafts. What's your deal? it was such a stupid issue last september, and we hashed it out pretty damn well back then. Of all the things for NASA to pick as the tech issue of the century...they managed to pick the one with no measurable performance benefit, and then screw up the chain of custody of multiple competitors in the process.  Finally awarding the largest SM purse ever based on an arguable rule interpretation, with multiple significant procedural errors, for something that had nothing to do with deciding the victory. 

If you think there are significant frictional losses in a CV joint, or measureable performance gains for reducing the rotating weight of a 26mm diameter rod...then you really have zero grasp of basic physics.

If you really think that its ok for the governing body to ignore the procedures that are in place to ensure the known ownership of the parts under inspection...then, I sure don't want you as my defense attorney.

I know I'm going to regret trying to "wresle with a pig in mud."  Frankly if you believe both of those things, then I have nothing further to discuss with you.

We keep trying to have a conversation about the non-randomness of who gets tech'd, and you just keep dragging this old issue back up.


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I have a different perspective. An organization the prescribes rules of conduct it is expected to follow them. Especially in a situation like that where you are going to take away a significant contingency. You better do it by the book. It better be by clear rule violations that everyone is on notice of. The harm that results is the loss of credibility of the organization. Because if the organization can't follow the process and the written rule,  its becomes Random, which is my way of bringing this comment back to the topic of the post, lol.

Although I applaud your attempt at bringing this back to topic, I believe the proper legal term for what you are describing is arbitrary, as I was not there I could not attest to the capricious nature of the ruling. 


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Tom,

First, Jim admits it was done for performance gain so give me a break. Is Jim wrong then? You have no clue at how to be competitive if you don't think the aggregation of tiny things is the secret. Do you believe that minding small things is important? Basic physics(math) says that adding any numbers together equals a greater number.

Two, you aren't listening. I said the procedural issues were a big deal. Just that it had zero impact in this case. Understand the difference? Meteor impacts are a big deal but not much concern to humans when they strike Mars. Get the difference? Chain of custody had nothing to do with this when it is openly stated by those in question that they did it and for a gain. I sure wouldn't want you as my attorney if complexities are something you are unable to grasp.

Third, yeah I hear you. But you are the pig. Is your issue really that this conversation is in the wrong spot? You are a tool of these guys. I didn't start the ragging on NASA or was the first to bring up cota. I only called out the hypocrisy. You have zero criticism of others for your favorites when they drift the conversation.

I'd like to know what reman shop supplies half shafts where the balls fall through the cage? One of the complexities you are unable to grasp is that multiple rules may apply. These same people that you never see any wrong with are the same people that pointed out to me that the AC SYSTEM we are allowed to delete doesn't include the wiring of that SYSTEM because another rule stated you can't touch the harness unless specifically allowed. How that applies here is that it states you can run a reman shaft but it also states you can't machine parts unless specifically allowed. It does not say to ignore that rule because you know a reman shop that polishes or grinds or machines the cage.

This complexity is important because it sets the tone of how people apply the rules. In the attorney world it us called precedent. Which it does not matter how small an issue the precedent was established on. What matters is the principles behind it.

Understand? I doubt it show feel free to stop squirming around in the mud and let me just butcher you and enjoy the ham sandwich.
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