Jump to content

Photo

SM Car Cost

- - - - -

  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

I'll spin off another thread.

 

Why does an NB car cost 15k more than an NA? The prep is identical. The cages are identical. Suspension package identical. Performance very nearly identical.

 

I'm genuinely interested in what the builders have to say about this. In my opinion this is one of the biggest reasons we can't get new people into road racing and especially SM. There is a perception that buying into an NA is a big risk, but NB pricing is kind of ridiculous when you put it into cost vs. performance comparison.

 

If it is market forces driving this up it might be time to really examine where this pricing is coming from, because it hurts the future of SM to keep NBs expensive.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#2
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,963 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

I'll spin off another thread.
 
Why does an NB car cost 15k more than an NA? The prep is identical. The cages are identical. Suspension package identical. Performance very nearly identical.

 

Who said THAT was true?  If you have a top prep, new NA built by ESR, X-Factor, etc....I'd fully expect to pay the same $30k price or whatever it is today, its a cost (labor+parts) driven price.  I'd almost expect the NA to be more, because there are likely a few more things that need to be R&R'd for a 10 year older car. 

 

If you are talking the "existing car market" (not a new build)....that's a completely different animal.  That's just market forces---eg, desireability.  Unless the NA has a HST pedigree (driven by a champtionship quality driver, and probably needing a win or three on its talley) its going to have the perception of being a lower tier car. 


  • Erik Hardy likes this

-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#3
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

I'm not talking about brand new. I'm talking about several year old NB builds going for 21k without Penskes.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#4
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,267 posts
  • Location:St. Louis

Damned capitalism! How do you propose to upset market equilibrium comrade?
  • Cnj, Jim Drago and Erik Hardy like this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#5
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,963 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

Then like I said...that's just market forces---same as any other market.  NBs HOLD their value better than NAs, because they are perceived as the better car.  Frankly, even as an NA6 owner/driver, the NB **is** the better car for racing today.   Recent discussions around the NA8 confound that a bit for THAT car.  But, the NB is better aero, better handling car.  Further, they are 90% percent of the field.  Everyone has parts at the race for an NB.  If you are in an NA6 or NA8 you might have 1-3 other cars with spares to buy if you need one.  The NA6 requires more attention to detail.  NBs win the most number of races, at every level. 

 

The list goes on...for reasons real and preceived that the NA is just not the right choice for most racers today. 

 

More supply, limited demand => lower price.    Maybe all us NA owners should collude to price-fix the NAs---at least long enough for me to sell mine for the price of a new Xfactor NB.   then I'll start lobbying to get the weight removed...cuz, I light driving a light-ass car.  I'm small, I earned my weight advantage DAMNIT!!!!   ;-)

 

I should change my tagline:  "I didn't lose, I just got out-eaten!"


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#6
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,546 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

I'm not talking about brand new. I'm talking about several year old NB builds going for 21k without Penskes.

 

The market will definitely yield $21K for a well built/maintained NB that has a good record of results.  NA's with very few exceptions simply haven't proven to be as competitive in any numbers so I think the market views investing in one as a riskier decision.  For me having owned an NA1.8, an '00 and a VVT, I think the very best overall car among all of them is a '96-'97 if someone is considering buying a used car and wants the most reliable version and wants something that can be very competitive.  It's the most reliable of the cars IMO, makes competitive power now without a RP and to your point they can be purchased for less.  Good examples of these cars though are few and far between because they weren't perceived as competitive for several years and that was probably a fair position so not many were built or well maintained.  There is still some thought that the NA's are a tick behind the NB's in terms of handling (at 2400 pounds) and aero but that debate has never been fully settled.  

 

I'm hoping to have my '95 back in good form (it's got 1 remaining bug to sort out) and give it a rip without the RP.  On the dyno it'll make you smile. 


  • Jim Drago likes this
Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#7
Martinracing98

Martinracing98

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 126 posts

I purchased 2 years ago. First I like the NB looks better. We had one as a daily driver a few years back. But everything I read said that NA might not be as competitive. Being new, if the car was not competitive, I would not know if it were me or car. So I bought the car with the least risk. That was a 99. As I stated in the other thread. If we offered a path to upgrade 1.6 to 1.8 I think it would reduce, not eliminate, that risk resulting in NA prices coming up some. While still be low enough to get people in that are not ready to buy NB. 



#8
Michael Novak

Michael Novak

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 493 posts
  • Location:Highland
  • Region:Michigan
  • Car Year:2002
  • Car Number:#9
Cage is huge reason. Many NA cars were built along time ago and frankly the cages were not as good as they are today. For safety alone I would want a current caged car.
  • Jim Drago likes this
Majors Winner - Instigator - Made a topic or post that inspired other We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+ Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#9
Jim Drago

Jim Drago

    East Street Racing / 2 Time National Champion

  • Administrators
  • 6,214 posts
  • Location:Memphis, Tn
  • Region:Mid South
  • Car Year:2005
  • Car Number:2

Cage is huge reason. Many NA cars were built along time ago and frankly the cages were not as good as they are today. For safety alone I would want a current caged car.

that and there are few 1.6 cars that sell that are/were pro quality builds. I have seen some super nice ones, they are few and far between though. But they are out there. Unfortunately I think they mostly get lumped in with a lot of the old and neglected 1.6 cars unfairly and their price is brought down. :( that and whether you believe it or not, the perception for years has been they are the least competitive car


East Street Auto Parts
Jim@Eaststreet.com
800 700 9080

NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#10
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,963 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

that and whether you believe it or not, the perception for years has been they are the least competitive car


That's because for years there was a conspiracy by Dargo to keep the poor NA6 down. Rumor has it, that was simply to try and prop up his own business profits. That's what I heard from several unreliable sources.

 

[sarcasm---for the historically impaired.]


  • dstevens and Jim Drago like this

-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#11
Danny Steyn

Danny Steyn

    Zulu rain warrior

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,417 posts
  • Location:Fort Lauderdale
  • Region:FL
  • Car Year:1999
  • Car Number:39

On the West Coast NA's are still popular


  • Alberto likes this

Danny
Danny Steyn Racing | DSR YouTube Channel
Danny Steyn Photography | Adept Studios | Ocean MachineryOPM AutosportsRossini Racing Engines | G-Loc Brakes | 

2019 SCCA Runoffs Champion, SCCA Clean Sweep Award, Hoosier Super Tour Champion, June Sprints Winner, Triple Crown Winner, Double ARRC Winner

2018 SCCA Runoffs Champion, NASA Champion, Hoosier Super Tour Champion, June Sprints Winner, Triple Crown Winner

2016 June Sprints WInner, ARRC Winner, NASA Eastern States Championships Podium

2015 Eastern Conference Majors Champ, June Sprints Winner, ARRC Winner

2014 NASA Eastern States Championship Runner Up.

2013 SEDiv Driver of the Year, Eastern Conference Majors Champ, SEDiv National Champ, ARRC Winner, Runoffs Podium

2011 SEDiv Driver of the Year, SEDiv National Champ, ARRC Winner, SEDiv ECR Champ
2010 June Sprints Winner, ARRC Winner

 

June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Majors Winner - BFG Supertour Winner -

#12
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

Damned capitalism! How do you propose to upset market equilibrium comrade?

 

Isn't it obvious. We would just change the rules so people need an NA to win. Then an NA car would be 20k and an NB less than 10k? Give me a break.

 

If the all knowing market is really the primary reason then do you need any more evidence to make the NA's faster?


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#13
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,546 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

That's because for years there was a conspiracy by Dargo to keep the poor NA6 down. Rumor has it, that was simply to try and prop up his own business profits. That's what I heard from several unreliable sources.

 

[sarcasm---for the historically impaired.]

 

He kept the NA8 down, pushed hard down on that one.  Sarcsasm, well sort of. 


Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#14
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,963 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

Isn't it obvious. We would just change the rules so people need an NA to win. Then an NA car would be 20k and an NB less than 10k? Give me a break.
 
If the all knowing market is really the primary reason then do you need any more evidence to make the NA's faster?


Er...sarcasm?


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#15
Tom Sager

Tom Sager

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,546 posts
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs
  • Region:Central
  • Car Year:2001
  • Car Number:94

Isn't it obvious. We would just change the rules so people need an NA to win. Then an NA car would be 20k and an NB less than 10k? Give me a break.

 

If the all knowing market is really the primary reason then do you need any more evidence to make the NA's faster?

 

The NA's were beaten into submission and haven't recovered.  Not the cars or the owners. 

 

We NA owners weren't as tough as say, cigarette smokers.

 


Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! Make it Rain - Made Paypal donation of $100+

#16
Steve Scheifler

Steve Scheifler

    member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,267 posts
  • Location:St. Louis
Crush, kidding aside, I really don’t know what you are going on about. Stuff’s worth what people are willing to pay for it. This isn’t a market that can be manipulated by some kind of conspiracy, other than rules favoring one car over another. I built two NBs with all the best parts and with one race on mine and three on Tom’s maybe got close to recouping our actual cash outlay after throwing in extra wheels, tires etc. In other words the buyers paid zero for labor. If the identical cars came out of a pro shop they would have been $10k more because they aren’t in the business of giving away labor and would like to make a profit as well. Factor in all the other reasons listed countless times in countless discussions that people prefer an NB, and what exactly are you expecting to pay???

Don’t think of it as NBs being overpriced, think of it as NAs being a bargain.
  • Erik Hardy likes this
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#17
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

Er...sarcasm?

 

A bit. I just think it's funny when people say "market forces", but then don't want to apply it in the opposite way.

 

If the rules changed and you needed an NA to win, do you really think the price for an NA would double?


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#18
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

Crush, kidding aside, I really don’t know what you are going on about. Stuff’s worth what people are willing to pay for it. This isn’t a market that can be manipulated by some kind of conspiracy, other than rules favoring one car over another. I built two NBs with all the best parts and with one race on mine and three on Tom’s maybe got close to recouping our actual cash outlay after throwing in extra wheels, tires etc. In other words the buyers paid zero for labor. If the identical cars came out of a pro shop they would have been $10k more because they aren’t in the business of giving away labor and would like to make a profit as well. Factor in all the other reasons listed countless times in countless discussions that people prefer an NB, and what exactly are you expecting to pay???

Don’t think of it as NBs being overpriced, think of it as NAs being a bargain.

 

I brought this up because there is discussion to remove NA cars to bring in more drivers (because this would make NB even better). This thread was to propose how to lower cost of NB to bring in more drivers. The only reason NA cars don't phase out on their own is the price of an NB.

 

Maybe NAs really are just a bargain. That is what I was trying to discover with this thread. Is NB worth the cost or is NA really cheap just because of smoke and mirrors.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com


#19
Tom Hampton

Tom Hampton

    Egregious Member

  • SMembers
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,963 posts
  • Location:Mckinney, tx
  • Region:South west
  • Car Year:1992
  • Car Number:41

I brought this up because there is discussion to remove NA cars to bring in more drivers (because this would make NB even better). This thread was to propose how to lower cost of NB to bring in more drivers. The only reason NA cars don't phase out on their own is the price of an NB.
 
Maybe NAs really are just a bargain. That is what I was trying to discover with this thread. Is NB worth the cost or is NA really cheap just because of smoke and mirrors.

I really think that idea from that other thread falls into the category of "be careful what you wish for."  And, I don't think it will do what Dargo wants it to---not that he's been clear about what that is. 

 

As far as changing the relative market value between NA and NB?  I'm guessing that ship has sailed----without an outright rules concession, and probably a pretty egrigious one, at that. And I think THAT would also be bad for the class---overall participation numbers.  You would drive people OUT of SM, not into NA cars.  NB owners would take their cars somewhere else....no one would build NA cars in any massive numbers and the class would just die a slow dwindling death. 


-tch
Build: www.tomhampton.info

video: vimeo.com/tomhampton

Support: X-Factor Racing

 

I didn't lose, I just got outspent!

Beta-Tester - Assisted us with beta testing the website. Donor - Made PayPal donation Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#20
OrangeCrush86

OrangeCrush86

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 424 posts
  • Location:BECKER
  • Region:Minnesota

I really think that idea from that other thread falls into the category of "be careful what you wish for."  And, I don't think it will do what Dargo wants it to---not that he's been clear about what that is. 

 

As far as changing the relative market value between NA and NB?  I'm guessing that ship has sailed----without an outright rules concession, and probably a pretty egrigious one, at that. And I think THAT would also be bad for the class---overall participation numbers.  You would drive people OUT of SM, not into NA cars.  NB owners would take their cars somewhere else....no one would build NA cars in any massive numbers and the class would just die a slow dwindling death. 

 

I agree with this, but again considering the other thread. You can't make an NB only SM (which seems to have a surprising amount of support) with every car costing over $20k and expect to grow SM more than the NA cars you lost. If there is a real solution to this problem then it would be much easier to send NA cars packing.


____________________________

http://jenkinsracing.com





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users