43 replies to this topic

[OrangeCrush86]

I'll spin off another thread.

 

Why does an NB car cost 15k more than an NA? The prep is identical. The cages are identical. Suspension package identical. Performance very nearly identical.

 

I'm genuinely interested in what the builders have to say about this. In my opinion this is one of the biggest reasons we can't get new people into road racing and especially SM. There is a perception that buying into an NA is a big risk, but NB pricing is kind of ridiculous when you put it into cost vs. performance comparison.

 

If it is market forces driving this up it might be time to really examine where this pricing is coming from, because it hurts the future of SM to keep NBs expensive.

[Tom Hampton]

I'll spin off another thread.
 
Why does an NB car cost 15k more than an NA? The prep is identical. The cages are identical. Suspension package identical. Performance very nearly identical.

 

Who said THAT was true?  If you have a top prep, new NA built by ESR, X-Factor, etc....I'd fully expect to pay the same $30k price or whatever it is today, its a cost (labor+parts) driven price.  I'd almost expect the NA to be more, because there are likely a few more things that need to be R&R'd for a 10 year older car. 

 

If you are talking the "existing car market" (not a new build)....that's a completely different animal.  That's just market forces---eg, desireability.  Unless the NA has a HST pedigree (driven by a champtionship quality driver, and probably needing a win or three on its talley) its going to have the perception of being a lower tier car. 

[OrangeCrush86]

I'm not talking about brand new. I'm talking about several year old NB builds going for 21k without Penskes.

[Steve Scheifler]

Damned capitalism! How do you propose to upset market equilibrium comrade?

[Tom Hampton]

Then like I said...that's just market forces---same as any other market.  NBs HOLD their value better than NAs, because they are perceived as the better car.  Frankly, even as an NA6 owner/driver, the NB **is** the better car for racing today.   Recent discussions around the NA8 confound that a bit for THAT car.  But, the NB is better aero, better handling car.  Further, they are 90% percent of the field.  Everyone has parts at the race for an NB.  If you are in an NA6 or NA8 you might have 1-3 other cars with spares to buy if you need one.  The NA6 requires more attention to detail.  NBs win the most number of races, at every level. 

 

The list goes on...for reasons real and preceived that the NA is just not the right choice for most racers today. 

 

More supply, limited demand => lower price.    Maybe all us NA owners should collude to price-fix the NAs---at least long enough for me to sell mine for the price of a new Xfactor NB.   then I'll start lobbying to get the weight removed...cuz, I light driving a light-ass car.  I'm small, I earned my weight advantage DAMNIT!!!!   ;-)

 

I should change my tagline:  "I didn't lose, I just got out-eaten!"

[Tom Sager]

I'm not talking about brand new. I'm talking about several year old NB builds going for 21k without Penskes.

 

The market will definitely yield $21K for a well built/maintained NB that has a good record of results.  NA's with very few exceptions simply haven't proven to be as competitive in any numbers so I think the market views investing in one as a riskier decision.  For me having owned an NA1.8, an '00 and a VVT, I think the very best overall car among all of them is a '96-'97 if someone is considering buying a used car and wants the most reliable version and wants something that can be very competitive.  It's the most reliable of the cars IMO, makes competitive power now without a RP and to your point they can be purchased for less.  Good examples of these cars though are few and far between because they weren't perceived as competitive for several years and that was probably a fair position so not many were built or well maintained.  There is still some thought that the NA's are a tick behind the NB's in terms of handling (at 2400 pounds) and aero but that debate has never been fully settled.  

 

I'm hoping to have my '95 back in good form (it's got 1 remaining bug to sort out) and give it a rip without the RP.  On the dyno it'll make you smile. 

[Martinracing98]

I purchased 2 years ago. First I like the NB looks better. We had one as a daily driver a few years back. But everything I read said that NA might not be as competitive. Being new, if the car was not competitive, I would not know if it were me or car. So I bought the car with the least risk. That was a 99. As I stated in the other thread. If we offered a path to upgrade 1.6 to 1.8 I think it would reduce, not eliminate, that risk resulting in NA prices coming up some. While still be low enough to get people in that are not ready to buy NB. 

[Michael Novak]

Cage is huge reason. Many NA cars were built along time ago and frankly the cages were not as good as they are today. For safety alone I would want a current caged car.

[Jim Drago]

Cage is huge reason. Many NA cars were built along time ago and frankly the cages were not as good as they are today. For safety alone I would want a current caged car.

that and there are few 1.6 cars that sell that are/were pro quality builds. I have seen some super nice ones, they are few and far between though. But they are out there. Unfortunately I think they mostly get lumped in with a lot of the old and neglected 1.6 cars unfairly and their price is brought down. that and whether you believe it or not, the perception for years has been they are the least competitive car

[Tom Hampton]

that and whether you believe it or not, the perception for years has been they are the least competitive car

That's because for years there was a conspiracy by Dargo to keep the poor NA6 down. Rumor has it, that was simply to try and prop up his own business profits. That's what I heard from several unreliable sources.

 

[sarcasm---for the historically impaired.]

[Danny Steyn]

On the West Coast NA's are still popular

[OrangeCrush86]

Damned capitalism! How do you propose to upset market equilibrium comrade?

 

Isn't it obvious. We would just change the rules so people need an NA to win. Then an NA car would be 20k and an NB less than 10k? Give me a break.

 

If the all knowing market is really the primary reason then do you need any more evidence to make the NA's faster?

[Tom Sager]

That's because for years there was a conspiracy by Dargo to keep the poor NA6 down. Rumor has it, that was simply to try and prop up his own business profits. That's what I heard from several unreliable sources.

 

[sarcasm---for the historically impaired.]

 

He kept the NA8 down, pushed hard down on that one.  Sarcsasm, well sort of. 

[Tom Hampton]

Isn't it obvious. We would just change the rules so people need an NA to win. Then an NA car would be 20k and an NB less than 10k? Give me a break.
 
If the all knowing market is really the primary reason then do you need any more evidence to make the NA's faster?

Er...sarcasm?

[Tom Sager]

Isn't it obvious. We would just change the rules so people need an NA to win. Then an NA car would be 20k and an NB less than 10k? Give me a break.

 

If the all knowing market is really the primary reason then do you need any more evidence to make the NA's faster?

 

The NA's were beaten into submission and haven't recovered.  Not the cars or the owners. 

 

We NA owners weren't as tough as say, cigarette smokers.

 

[Steve Scheifler]

Crush, kidding aside, I really don’t know what you are going on about. Stuff’s worth what people are willing to pay for it. This isn’t a market that can be manipulated by some kind of conspiracy, other than rules favoring one car over another. I built two NBs with all the best parts and with one race on mine and three on Tom’s maybe got close to recouping our actual cash outlay after throwing in extra wheels, tires etc. In other words the buyers paid zero for labor. If the identical cars came out of a pro shop they would have been $10k more because they aren’t in the business of giving away labor and would like to make a profit as well. Factor in all the other reasons listed countless times in countless discussions that people prefer an NB, and what exactly are you expecting to pay???

Don’t think of it as NBs being overpriced, think of it as NAs being a bargain.

[OrangeCrush86]

Er...sarcasm?

 

A bit. I just think it's funny when people say "market forces", but then don't want to apply it in the opposite way.

 

If the rules changed and you needed an NA to win, do you really think the price for an NA would double?

[OrangeCrush86]

Crush, kidding aside, I really don’t know what you are going on about. Stuff’s worth what people are willing to pay for it. This isn’t a market that can be manipulated by some kind of conspiracy, other than rules favoring one car over another. I built two NBs with all the best parts and with one race on mine and three on Tom’s maybe got close to recouping our actual cash outlay after throwing in extra wheels, tires etc. In other words the buyers paid zero for labor. If the identical cars came out of a pro shop they would have been $10k more because they aren’t in the business of giving away labor and would like to make a profit as well. Factor in all the other reasons listed countless times in countless discussions that people prefer an NB, and what exactly are you expecting to pay???

Don’t think of it as NBs being overpriced, think of it as NAs being a bargain.

 

I brought this up because there is discussion to remove NA cars to bring in more drivers (because this would make NB even better). This thread was to propose how to lower cost of NB to bring in more drivers. The only reason NA cars don't phase out on their own is the price of an NB.

 

Maybe NAs really are just a bargain. That is what I was trying to discover with this thread. Is NB worth the cost or is NA really cheap just because of smoke and mirrors.

[Tom Hampton]

I brought this up because there is discussion to remove NA cars to bring in more drivers (because this would make NB even better). This thread was to propose how to lower cost of NB to bring in more drivers. The only reason NA cars don't phase out on their own is the price of an NB.
 
Maybe NAs really are just a bargain. That is what I was trying to discover with this thread. Is NB worth the cost or is NA really cheap just because of smoke and mirrors.

I really think that idea from that other thread falls into the category of "be careful what you wish for."  And, I don't think it will do what Dargo wants it to---not that he's been clear about what that is. 

 

As far as changing the relative market value between NA and NB?  I'm guessing that ship has sailed----without an outright rules concession, and probably a pretty egrigious one, at that. And I think THAT would also be bad for the class---overall participation numbers.  You would drive people OUT of SM, not into NA cars.  NB owners would take their cars somewhere else....no one would build NA cars in any massive numbers and the class would just die a slow dwindling death. 

[OrangeCrush86]

I really think that idea from that other thread falls into the category of "be careful what you wish for."  And, I don't think it will do what Dargo wants it to---not that he's been clear about what that is. 

 

As far as changing the relative market value between NA and NB?  I'm guessing that ship has sailed----without an outright rules concession, and probably a pretty egrigious one, at that. And I think THAT would also be bad for the class---overall participation numbers.  You would drive people OUT of SM, not into NA cars.  NB owners would take their cars somewhere else....no one would build NA cars in any massive numbers and the class would just die a slow dwindling death. 

 

I agree with this, but again considering the other thread. You can't make an NB only SM (which seems to have a surprising amount of support) with every car costing over $20k and expect to grow SM more than the NA cars you lost. If there is a real solution to this problem then it would be much easier to send NA cars packing.