24 replies to this topic

[Jim Drago]

Here is a link to the current rules

 

http://www.mazdamoto...S5DymXyYfNJ681s

[Ben-AdvancedAutosports]

I'm curious if anyone else has finished a car and had it on the dyno.  For the sake of open communication my Dynojet read at 165HP and 143Torque.  This is still on break-in oil, but I was hoping to see a little more gain over a stock motor.

[Camaro67racer]

I'm curious if anyone else has finished a car and had it on the dyno.  For the sake of open communication my Dynojet read at 165HP and 143Torque.  This is still on break-in oil, but I was hoping to see a little more gain over a stock motor.

 

Hmm, that's not a whole lot of gain over my old T4 car, especially considering the Spec MX-5 gets a header and the engine/head work.

[Jim Drago]

I'm curious if anyone else has finished a car and had it on the dyno.  For the sake of open communication my Dynojet read at 165HP and 143Torque.  This is still on break-in oil, but I was hoping to see a little more gain over a stock motor.

I think that is a "good" one from what I am hearing. I have had a few issues with mine, I should have it done and dynoed next week. I will post up here as well. 

The numbers I am hearing are disappointing considering I barely touched my T4 head as all was over done from factory without a header and I was at 166 and bone stock 26k engine in T4 trim was 163 hp...  

 

Jim

[Michael Novak]

Hmm, that's not a whole lot of gain over my old T4 car, especially considering the Spec MX-5 gets a header and the engine/head work.

Except you had an awesome example!!!

[Cnj]

I'm curious if anyone else has finished a car and had it on the dyno.  For the sake of open communication my Dynojet read at 165HP and 143Torque.  This is still on break-in oil, but I was hoping to see a little more gain over a stock motor.

Mine should go in the dyno soon.  Very interested to see how it measures.  Would have expected 170ish.  Will soon know.  

[TylerQuance]

T4 engines I have seen and raced range 161-167. A good rebuild or rock stock.

The SMX-5 tunes are a little more conservative than most of the T4 NCs I know of. This is a good thing. These engines and cores are expensive.

[Ben-AdvancedAutosports]

T4 engines I have seen and raced range 161-167. A good rebuild or rock stock.

The SMX-5 tunes are a little more conservative than most of the T4 NCs I know of. This is a good thing. These engines and cores are expensive.

 

Thanks for the info Tyler.  I'm all for adding reliability and tech-ability to a new class from its inception.  I'm trying to gather more information.  My four T4 cars range from 157-164HP.  As a shop owner we are often the ones that steer people towards what type of car they should buy, or what class to run in.  If I oversell something and it doesn't measure up to the expectations then I look bad.  I have 4 T4 cars in my shop and I'm not sure if I should push people towards this class, or leave them as T4 cars.  

[Jim Drago]

Thanks for the info Tyler.  I'm all for adding reliability and tech-ability to a new class from its inception.  I'm trying to gather more information.  My four T4 cars range from 157-164HP.  As a shop owner we are often the ones that steer people towards what type of car they should buy, or what class to run in.  If I oversell something and it doesn't measure up to the expectations then I look bad.  I have 4 T4 cars in my shop and I'm not sure if I should push people towards this class, or leave them as T4 cars.  

IMo, thats a large expense for no gain in performance? I dont quite see the up side yet? If the class grows and there is more competition and that is what they seek, I guess that is a good idea.. 

[TylerQuance]

Well the price (to me regular racer, not an engine builder racer) of a long block is only incrementally higher than a T4 rebuild. My cost has been all the this-and-that stuff that adds up quick. If the engines don't blow up and are even enough I have nothing to complain about. Lots of thought went into making this package reliable and equal. Time will tell and early adopters will in theory have the most influence over the direction this goes.

Ben, you have more NC T4 experience than I do so you probably have a more accurate range. I have 1 car that has had several engines and several tunes and race with 1 other NC in my division... not much data. The high number was on a mobile dynojet and I had no baseline. Also a tired stock engine may only make 155 as our WRL car did. For SMX-5, the draw for me is competition, reliability, tech-ability. This is why we race Miatas in the first place. Guys who want more "performance" can race Corvettes in T1.

[dhrmx5]

I am curious as to what it is costing to build these cars. From a Drago quality build to a bare bones build? I see them as being fairly expensive for the end results. What kept me out of the MX5 Cup was all the extras I had to have per the rules. The build on one of those was going to be about 10K more than what I could put a car on track for.

 

Anybody want to share their numbers?

[TylerQuance]

Bare bones parts and materials only cost for a competitive car could be $25-30k depending on your donor. I would expect a quality build to be 2x this figure give or take.

[Jim Drago]

Bare bones parts and materials only cost for a competitive car could be $25-30k depending on your donor. I would expect a quality build to be 2x this figure give or take.

That is like the $10,000-15000 sm? I dont believe that to be accurate, I think more like 32-35,000 

 

Full builds running around 55,000-65000 from most depending what you put in them

[Cnj]

I don’t wanna impact anyone’s profitability, but I also don’t wanna see people scared away.  I’ve got one 95% completed and it’s nowhere near $65K and I have a LOT of stuff in mine including 3 sets of wheels and tires.

 

Someone like Tyler (skills, commitment, contacts and time) will build a Spec MX5 for a lot less than what I paid (I just sit in my couch and ask for stuff).  I know what my parts list cost and my guess is you would be pretty hard pressed to do it under $35K even with mostly your own labor and not adding crazy stuff like I did - but I don’t have definitive evidence of that and I know there are several short cuts.  If someone told me they were going to build their own and do it well, I’d advise them to plan on $35-40K. This is not rocket science, you can go to Spec MX5 and download a build list and make your own budget evaluation like I did.

 

These cars are definitely more expensive than a SM (probably 20-25% more for an equivalent build) but I don’t like seeing people scared by hearing $65K prices.  If on the other hand you WANT to spend $65K please PM me cause I have a brand new build I’ll sell you (and I’ll go build another one and pocket the significant difference).

 

cnj 

[Jim Drago]

 

 

These cars are definitely more expensive than a SM (probably 20-25% more for an equivalent build) but I don’t like seeing people scared by hearing $65K prices.  If on the other hand you WANT to spend $65K please PM me cause I have a brand new build I’ll sell you (and I’ll go build another one and pocket the significant difference).

 

cnj 

I wouldnt be so confident on that fact as I know your builder and he isnt doing anymore at anywhere near what he did these first 4-5 cars for    As I said, It all depends what you want in them and how far you want to go and specifically answered the poster question of what a "Drago quality build costs".  I think you will find the 55-65k number is line, in fact we will be less than many other shops who routinely charge more for SM builds than we do. Using you own 35-40k home build estimate and add 150-180 hours labor at normal shop rate.. you get another 15-18k easily, but what do I know   

[TylerQuance]

$65k for a loaded X-Factor or Drago or Advanced etc etc build would not be unreasonable. I traditionally buy the least I can to be competitive with front running cars. My data system is a Solo2DL that plugs in to the OBD2 port for example. Works fine for NCs IMO. An MXL2 would be nice but I have tires to buy to make sure I'm driving the same race as the rest of you jokers!!

[Cnj]

Ok Jim, I’ll bite.

 

My post simply noted that if someone offered me $65K for my car, I’d go build another one and pocket some money.  Agreed that’s what I said?

And your response was:

 

“I wouldn't be so confident on that fact as I know your builder and he isnt doing anymore at anywhere near what he did these first 4-5 cars for  “

 

So you are saying that my builder would now charge me $65K for the identical car he just built for me?   Wowzaa, that would be impressive.

 

But what do I know

 

cnj 

[TylerQuance]

If I were your builder I would charge $85k for your next build. This figure increases $5k every time you post something about pocketing money from selling the world class build you just got.

[dhrmx5]

Thanks for the info. Early on I had talked to Mazda and they estimated 30K plus donor (less labor) so they weren't out of line. Frankly, I just don't see the bang/buck. Good luck to those of you going down this path (seriously). 

[Cnj]

If I were your builder I would charge $85k for your next build. This figure increases $5k every time you post something about pocketing money from selling the world class build you just got.

Hey Tyler,

 

I hope not!!!  

 

Anyway, anyone can read this thread and figure out who said what and try to interpret motives.  My motive is simple (and it’s not to sell my car or brag about a “world class build”).  When we publicly establish a high number as normative for the class, we pay a price for class growth.  I think this hurts both class advocates like you and me and also builders (cost/volume).

 

And by the way, I look forward to racing with you.  Or behind you as the case may be

 

cnj