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Spacers and Offsets - I Was Wrong

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#1
Jamz14

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After a month I received word from NASA tech that my interpretation of the wheel spacer rule was incorrect. We are allowed to run front or rear spacers independent of the other end of the car. Moronic that we arent allowed to do the same thing with wheel offsets. Haven't been given a sensible reason as to why not.

You all know this, so my main point of posting this is to acknowledge my error.
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#2
Jim Drago

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 Haven't been given a sensible reason as to why not.

 

Because that's the rule :) :) :)


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#3
Steve Scheifler

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Because that's the rule :) :) :)


Because even that’s too complicated for tech?
I’ve got to side with James here, it’s pointless and pissed me off many times since I had bought a large number of wheels over the years in three common but different offsets. That I couldn’t use them in pairs to optimize tire rotation is just stupid, rule or not.
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#4
Jim Drago

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Because even that’s too complicated for tech?
I’ve got to side with James here, it’s pointless and pissed me off many times since I had bought a large number of wheels over the years in three common but different offsets. That I couldn’t use them in pairs to optimize tire rotation is just stupid, rule or not.

Not sure where that started, it was before even my time on SMAC/CRB. I know Karl Z  and Sammy V tech were playing with huge spacers on one side an that is why the rule says equal per side


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#5
Steve Scheifler

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Not sure where that started, it was before even my time on SMAC/CRB. I know Karl Z and Sammy V tech were playing with huge spacers on one side an that is why the rule says equal per side


I’m fine with the per end of car part. That still allows me to run wheels in pairs F/R whether I’m doing it for convenience to optimize tire cycling/utilization OR to adjust total track at each end EXACTLY the same as I’m allowed via spacers but without the need of longer studs. My main reason was simply for tire rotation but the fact that it’s no different than we can do anyway with annoying spacers and studs is what makes it stupid.
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#6
Ron Alan

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I’m fine with the per end of car part. That still allows me to run wheels in pairs F/R whether I’m doing it for convenience to optimize tire cycling/utilization OR to adjust total track at each end EXACTLY the same as I’m allowed via spacers but without the need of longer studs. My main reason was simply for tire rotation but the fact that it’s no different than we can do anyway with annoying spacers and studs is what makes it stupid.

Sounds like a simple letter to the SMAC Steve...send it!! Stay within the track and equal per side(from CL)...via spacers or wheel offset!

 

Granted...given the ability of most regions to tech track...unlikely will ever be checked. I've always hoped for a basic measurement on toe plates...but hard to immediately catch a wider track on one side...original intent!


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#7
bmarshall1

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Maybe someone here can help me understand this.  "Upgrades" that are somewhere between cheap and free (you're gonna buy wheels regardless), why aren't they allowed?  If I want to run spacers on one side but no the other for $50, who cares?  I thought one of the reasons for SPEC is keeping the $$ out of pocket at a reasonable cost?

 

Why do I have to buy a $6500 race motor to keep from getting passed on the straights when a stock motor with a smaller restrictor plate would likely get the same HP for the cost of a used motor.  OK, put me on a dyno and seal the motor.

 

It's not a lot of fun racing against money instead of talent and cars.

 

Rant over...


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#8
callumhay

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Maybe someone here can help me understand this.  "Upgrades" that are somewhere between cheap and free (you're gonna buy wheels regardless), why aren't they allowed?  If I want to run spacers on one side but no the other for $50, who cares?  I thought one of the reasons for SPEC is keeping the $$ out of pocket at a reasonable cost?
 
Why do I have to buy a $6500 race motor to keep from getting passed on the straights when a stock motor with a smaller restrictor plate would likely get the same HP for the cost of a used motor.  OK, put me on a dyno and seal the motor.
 
It's not a lot of fun racing against money instead of talent and cars.
 
Rant over...


I feel you, however couple of conclusions I’ve come to that helped me with this

Racing at every level is always about money and talent. You can’t get “pure” talent alone whatever that is

If you think you have talent but lacking money, take your restrictor plate out , waive your points and go out and race and see what your times are. No need for a $6500 motor there

Spec Miata is a best attempt to try and fill a lot of goals and trying to make it as fair as possible. I think the SCCA and NASA and all the members who have put time into it for free have done a good job. Racing is not under fair in the dictionary, it’s time, effort, luck, money.

For me what I learned most: I’m not a great driver but I’m a safe and respectful driver and what I learned about safety with car prep is invaluable to me and my family who are wanting to start with track days

Take it any way you want, I’m not criticizing or disagreeing with you. You can learn to have fun without opening your pocket book

Callum
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#9
Jim Drago

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Maybe someone here can help me understand this.  "Upgrades" that are somewhere between cheap and free (you're gonna buy wheels regardless), why aren't they allowed?  If I want to run spacers on one side but no the other for $50, who cares?  I thought one of the reasons for SPEC is keeping the $$ out of pocket at a reasonable cost?

 

Why do I have to buy a $6500 race motor to keep from getting passed on the straights when a stock motor with a smaller restrictor plate would likely get the same HP for the cost of a used motor.  OK, put me on a dyno and seal the motor.

 

It's not a lot of fun racing against money instead of talent and cars.

 

Rant over...

Same reason you buy tires to keep up, same reason  you spend time and money practicing and with data. Same reason you spend time and money ( hopefully) setting up the car. 

 

It all costs, you chose what you put your budget towards. Spend all you like in this class, if you don't have the talent.. You are not winning.    


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#10
Martinracing98

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Maybe someone here can help me understand this.  "Upgrades" that are somewhere between cheap and free (you're gonna buy wheels regardless), why aren't they allowed?  If I want to run spacers on one side but no the other for $50, who cares?  I thought one of the reasons for SPEC is keeping the $$ out of pocket at a reasonable cost?

 

Why do I have to buy a $6500 race motor to keep from getting passed on the straights when a stock motor with a smaller restrictor plate would likely get the same HP for the cost of a used motor.  OK, put me on a dyno and seal the motor.

 

It's not a lot of fun racing against money instead of talent and cars.

 

Rant over...

I think sealing motors seldom saves money. How do you certify the dynos? How do you ensure the integrity of the seals. I think money makes less difference in SM than almost any racing I have seen


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#11
Steve Scheifler

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I agree with Jim but it doesn’t fully address your questions. I agree with Martinracing as well. People frequently jump to the idea of dynos and sealed engines and are quick to say “it works for...” but never, ever back that up with facts. In mixed classes with potentially bigger engine differences there is some validity. This isn’t that. In a true spec series with official engine suppliers there is some validity. This isn’t that. And yet what we have are fields both bigger and closer than even those dubious comparisons. I’ve expounded before on why using dynos & seals or on-site dynos to equalize this class would not be beneficial to those most often requesting it, but it isn’t really complicated. It won’t get you meaningfully closer in true usable power under the curve (peak power is a poor benchmark) between the typical “pro” build and a decent generic refresh. They will still have an edge on fine tuning and everyone will pay more than they do now with little if any change in results. (I’m assuming we would not dumb-down power below a typical good “stock” rebuild.)

As for where this started, wheels & spacers, I would not object to removing the “per-axle” restrictions but it doesn’t bother me so much as the above mentioned inconsistencies between the two methods of adjusting track. I understand that allowing each corner to be different may sound like cheap tuning, but in reality it sets at minimum another perception that someone with unlimited track time and resources can dial in closer to perfection for every track thereby gaining an edge on the rest. It is not dissimilar, (though to a much lesser degree) from having a spec adjustable shock. We already have a wide range of camber, toe and caster plus ride height, and bars though few deviate from the norms with those, and few mid-pack on back likely do a good job with that. We don’t need one more “knob to turn” whether the benefits are real or largely just perceived, they invariably jack costs by more than simple material prices.
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#12
bmarshall1

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You've all made some very valid points and I understand I'll always be racing against money, racing overall is not cheap.  But I also have no illusions that I will ever win anything.  It would be nice to be able to come in 20th place vs 30th place.  Many times I'll find a small pack that I can cafch under braking or in the corners then watch as they motor away in the straights, even when I'm in their draft.  

 

Good point about the sealed motors and unlimited track time to test additional suspension settings.  There will still be people/teams that will build their motors for power under the curve and make me look bad (or do I make me look bad?).

 

Pay no attention to the man in 30th place (me), I am just venting that I have to spend my LASIK money on a motor (or my motor money on LASIK, I haven't figured out which way to go yet).

 

Overall I do have fun, I enjoy my group of friends and the weekends.  My goals are not to wreck, don't wreck anyone else, don't come in last, and HAVE FUN.  Which I accomplish.

 

Lastly, is it really allowed to remove the plate and waive points.



#13
Steve Scheifler

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You've all made some very valid points and I understand I'll always be racing against money, racing overall is not cheap. But I also have no illusions that I will ever win anything. It would be nice to be able to come in 20th place vs 30th place. Many times I'll find a small pack that I can cafch under braking or in the corners then watch as they motor away in the straights, even when I'm in their draft.

Good point about the sealed motors and unlimited track time to test additional suspension settings. There will still be people/teams that will build their motors for power under the curve and make me look bad (or do I make me look bad?).

Pay no attention to the man in 30th place (me), I am just venting that I have to spend my LASIK money on a motor (or my motor money on LASIK, I haven't figured out which way to go yet).

Overall I do have fun, I enjoy my group of friends and the weekends. My goals are not to wreck, don't wreck anyone else, don't come in last, and HAVE FUN. Which I accomplish.

Lastly, is it really allowed to remove the plate and waive points.


I for one am not ignoring people behind. Some genuinely are content and just having fun. That’s great, but others like you not so much, at least not indefinitely, and really want to know what’s required. Well, a lot of things but unless your engine doesn’t belong out there it probably isn’t top of the list. If the engine alone is costing you more than 1 second per minute of lap time compared to a true top-build $7k engine then you are definitely well down on power compared to a properly tuned crate-equivalent rebuild. Read that again, it’s really important. I’m not even suggesting the best pro engine is worth 1 second compared to a generic refreshed street engine, I’m saying that difference would imply a weak “stock” build. People way over estimate the power gains from the small machining allowed on these cars, and what’s required for most of that. If you are running with the very best you need it, absolutely, and if you are anywhere in the field and driving well it could be the difference between you and the next guy or two. But it’s not seconds per lap, it just isn’t unless your engine is sick.

Once we factor out whatever deficit the engine does cost, the list of non-driver reasons for being way off pace is very short and overwhelmingly dominated by tires both in terms of impact and cost. Toyos may have less falloff but we’re still talking about our benchmark fastest cars/drivers that supply many from mid-pack on back their takeoffs. Fresher tires are generally faster with notable exceptions for some tracks. Broadly speaking they probably account more for finishing positions than engine power in this class. BUT, they are NOT the same immediate speed for all drivers. Our underpowered cars require no finesse or skill to reap most of the benefits of a few more ponies. It’s like drag racing matched stock 1972 automatic Pintos against John Force, he ain’t gonna win by much no matter how good he is. But, put fresher tires on for a lot of lesser drivers and they will not take full advantage of them like a top driver would. Many run in a subconscious comfort zone and more grip isn’t automatically probed and converted to more speed, at least not quickly, fully and consistently. Setup is the same way. Faster doesn’t always feel more planted, and that aside if you aren’t genuinely near the edge most of the time then small setup changes make less difference. The fastest driver might pick up consistent verifiable time with small tweaks, a lesser driver simply will not, often because they struggle between speed and consistency in their driving so the “noise” is greater than the benefit or detriment of those adjustments.

So that’s already longer than I ever intended and it’s far from complete. But I believe there are, as there have always been in racing, people out there who genuinely want to know what’s holding them back. I’m sure the conventional wisdom is that it’s best to allow a certain amount of ego-saving assumptions about being out spent and definitely out-powered, but I’m not convinced that’s true. Better perhaps to at least brake it down and set honest expectations by different areas of performance then focus on what really matters most. This place is about dead, in part thanks to FB which is a thoroughly useless platform for meaningful ongoing discussions. I’d be open to trying some honest, serious but non-abrasive or argumentative discussions on this and similar topics. Something genuinely constructive and helpful for people with a willingness to put in the effort. Done right it might even bring back participation from a few of the genuinely top drivers and knowledgeable coaches. Is such a thing still possible? Is anyone willing to try?
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#14
bmarshall1

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Steve - thanks for he honesty and directions to start looking.  To answer...

 

I generally run Toyos and refresh them yearly, likely not often enough.  I do however take them off, wrap them and place them in the house to temp control.  But still,  a fresh set would likely help me.  My friend had a race motor and he is not 1 second faster than me w/ my old motor, but I am faster than him in his car (<1 second).

 

I know my issues are consistency and learning to drive at the limit, consistency in each corner the same lap after lap.  I *think my car is set up.  I have fairly good ideas on how to set the suspension, but I am a set it and forget it guy (except for the last race), I adjusted the rear as I spun several times.  I do not go as far as Jim's Guide and adjust for each corner.  My main track at this time is Sebring

 

The motor is my thing simply because I can see people walk away from me, but I also know if they come out of the corner a few MPH faster then they already have me beat down the straight. I don't necessarily know how to go faster in the corners, but I do know how to write a check.

 

It's a good reference that I race motor is good for about 1 sec/minute vs. a freshened stock motor.  Maybe that's the route I may go.  I have also hear take the restrictor out on a practice and check lap time to see the difference.

 

I like this forum better than FB, there is much more depth of knowledge and specifics do not get lost in the background noise.

 

So Steve, whatever you are suggesting I would take part in any type of discussion.



#15
Tom Sager

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Steve - thanks for he honesty and directions to start looking.  To answer...

 

I generally run Toyos and refresh them yearly, likely not often enough.  I do however take them off, wrap them and place them in the house to temp control.  But still,  a fresh set would likely help me.  My friend had a race motor and he is not 1 second faster than me w/ my old motor, but I am faster than him in his car (<1 second).

 

I know my issues are consistency and learning to drive at the limit, consistency in each corner the same lap after lap.  I *think my car is set up.  I have fairly good ideas on how to set the suspension, but I am a set it and forget it guy (except for the last race), I adjusted the rear as I spun several times.  I do not go as far as Jim's Guide and adjust for each corner.  My main track at this time is Sebring

 

The motor is my thing simply because I can see people walk away from me, but I also know if they come out of the corner a few MPH faster then they already have me beat down the straight. I don't necessarily know how to go faster in the corners, but I do know how to write a check.

 

It's a good reference that I race motor is good for about 1 sec/minute vs. a freshened stock motor.  Maybe that's the route I may go.  I have also hear take the restrictor out on a practice and check lap time to see the difference.

 

I like this forum better than FB, there is much more depth of knowledge and specifics do not get lost in the background noise.

 

So Steve, whatever you are suggesting I would take part in any type of discussion.

If you have deficits of a few MPH coming off corners, the priority should probably be to work on closing that gap.  There is a lot of time to be gained there. 


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#16
Martinracing98

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The motor is my thing simply because I can see people walk away from me, but I also know if they come out of the corner a few MPH faster then they already have me beat down the straight. I don't necessarily know how to go faster in the corners, but I do know how to write a check.

 

I have raced cars and karts for the last 20 years. In regional races I can run in the front 25-30%. In big nationals 50-75%. Almost without fail my biggest corner gains have come from working on getting back on the gas earlier.  This happens by braking earlier, not later, allowing me to transition back to gas earlier. Maybe catching under braking is an indication of braking too late. I know braking too late is my most consistent bad habit


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#17
bmarshall1

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Once again - thanks for the honest discussions.  I purchased the Garmin Catalyst and it consistently 'coached' me to brake later and harder but turn in and apex earlier, I'm assuming to get on the gas earlier.  Obviously, to me, easier said than done.  It also leads me to believe I need to drive more at, and explore the limit.  But my car control is not the best, maybe my older tires contribute to this?  Maybe set up?

 

Based upon a few of the comments here and Steve's info, tires and practice will go a lot further than a race motor.

 

I for one, welcome any type of information like this, as I don't know what I don't know.


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#18
Steve Scheifler

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bmarshall1, more thoughts than time at the moment but I think you exemplify a fair number of people. I see you started another topic, excellent, things would quickly get lost under this one. I should note however that my conveniently round number of 1 second per minute of lap time was just that, and not a carefully considered estimate of generic refresh vs “pro built” which I expect is actually less on average. So if you really lose that much on power alone to guys otherwise close to you, it’s more likely that you are down on power compared to what any decent refresh should be, not their engines make so much more than any one healthy should. If you get my distinction there. But it’s a good topic for another discussion and may draw in both those who have examples from direct testing on-track by pulling restrictor plates (and documented the power difference on a dyno), and maybe a lap sim example or two for comparison. It’s certainly been kicked around before but not thoroughly.
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#19
bmarshall1

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bmarshall1, more thoughts than time at the moment but I think you exemplify a fair number of people. I see you started another topic, excellent, things would quickly get lost under this one. I should note however that my conveniently round number of 1 second per minute of lap time was just that, and not a carefully considered estimate of generic refresh vs “pro built” which I expect is actually less on average. So if you really lose that much on power alone to guys otherwise close to you, it’s more likely that you are down on power compared to what any decent refresh should be, not their engines make so much more than any one healthy should. If you get my distinction there. But it’s a good topic for another discussion and may draw in both those who have examples from direct testing on-track by pulling restrictor plates (and documented the power difference on a dyno), and maybe a lap sim example or two for comparison. It’s certainly been kicked around before but not thoroughly.

You may not be far off a the 1 sec per minute of lap time, just going off my friend and myself sharing a car at Sebring.  I have been passed by drivers cornering like they were on rails and I wonder how they manage, it.  I know a race motor would not help me in the least with folks like that, but they're not my competition.

 

My old motor was just that, old and tired and was going to get replaced regardless.  I have a 'fresher' 99 w/ @ 70k, I may just put it in and run it for the next season and then get it refreshed, or refresh another one of my spares and that will then be my spare. At this point I will likely be better served with tires, time, and coaching.  I think I will start a thread on race motor vs. rebuilding a motor, restrictors and HP etc...  Maybe lap time in sims as well.  It would be nice to get some track time in my living room.


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#20
Jim Drago

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Overall I do have fun, I enjoy my group of friends and the weekends.  My goals are not to wreck, don't wreck anyone else, don't come in last, and HAVE FUN.  Which I accomplish.

 

 

Sadly, the further you get away from these goals, the less "fun" you will have :(  The mid pack guys often seem to have the most fun. None of us are going to F1 from here, enjoy what you are doing.  


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