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WTF June Sprints Sat. Race Lasted 7 Turns Of Lap 1.

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#1
Bench Racer

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Should have been a 25 minute race and the race lasted 7 turns of lap 1 and the back half of the field showed their skill.  :banghead:  They came off T7 and bounced around like someone tipped over the Easter basket and eggs bounced off each other.. Some seriously damaged cars (from what I heard a couple write offs) and some drivers took some serious abuse to their bodies. Race black flagged and clock kept running, oops 25 minutes under black flag, race over. 

 

Video from Cooper Lilly coming through after the massive accident. Quick hands Cooper. In the video I counted 7 cars, then 1 at the Kink and number 14 off in T12. My guess would be there were more cars involved after the after T7 massive accident which continued on their way. 

 

 

 


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#2
Steve Scheifler

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What’s your point? Did you see how it started? Perhaps hold judgment, and indignation until you do. 71 cars, lap 1, it takes just one car one instant to start a chain reaction that can easily collect a dozen others. Taken on its own this incident is not evidence of anything other than the fact that shit happens.
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#3
Bench Racer

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Steve, yes it was observed on the track Jumbo screen in T5. It was observed on a spectators video. It was observed on a drivers video who trailed the start of the accident. From the video car, there was a YELLOW flag at the flag station outside track at the beginning of T7. NO ONE in the view of the camera lifted until on top of the accident. The accident was approx. midway between T7 and T8, large tree right side track. The POINT being which you well know, in general Spec Miata drivers do not lift for yellow flags. Please come back with reply AFTER you've watched some videos or talked with drivers involved, not feed back from drivers not involved. $hit happens is not the answer, slowing down for YELLOW flags is the answer. Likely there would have been car contact except not at full song. Not with serious injuries and not with totaled cars.


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#4
Alberto

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the wreck was horrific.  Saw the video on FB.  Definitely recommend shelving the indignation for now and showing some sympathy instead for the drivers involved.  


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#5
Ron Alan

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I've seen most of the posted and some private videos. This is that perfect storm we all know can happen. Lap 1, high speed, blocked vision and and a car stopped on track in front of 60 others...no matter how many see a yellow its not going to end well.

 

Come down off your judgement throne DD and dont be an asskole! People went to the hospital. 


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#6
Steve Scheifler

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What makes you think I haven’t? I saw some of those videos long before they were public and several more since. I have not yet seen any where someone ignored a visible yellow before the big impact, perhaps you can share that? There is in-car of the guy who hit the pink car after it landed, at the end of the incident, and I can’t spot a yellow even then. He comes out of T7, spots trouble far ahead and is hard on the brakes but simply guesses wrong as to where the other cars will land, taking to the grass where there is zero traction. Everyone around him is also locking up the brakes.

There were about 7 seconds from when 174 flew back onto the track until the big impact. That’s generally plenty of time for people to recognize trouble and slow, that was one of my first thoughts as well, but then I watched more. The difficulty is a line of cars with little view beyond the next car ahead, and when something happens each has a second less to react than the one before. A number of cars avoided contact but it appears by less each time, as you would expect, one appears to clip the rear bumper ripping it off. The car immediately ahead of pink had just enough time to stab the brake and swerve, leaving him too little time. His posted video is crap but I find it difficult to fault him without more evidence. Exactly what have you seen with people not slowing when they definitely should have?

I’m not saying it was faultless, I’m saying that I haven’t seem anything to support YOUR initial comments as being the cause and you offered ZERO evidence or even descriptions, which is what I objected to. In fact your own words imply you hadn’t seen anything but Cooper’s video and “heard” about cars written off. Don’t want to be called out? Then don’t post crap like that without something backing it up.
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#7
Steve Scheifler

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Bench, yellow outside 7? The pink car was already in T7 when the black car (174) was sliding back onto the track. NO WAY there was a waiving yellow yet for him to see. Your claims don’t fit the facts.
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#8
Steve Scheifler

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Should have been a 25 minute race and the race lasted 7 turns of lap 1 and the back half of the field showed their skill. :banghead: They came off T7 and bounced around like someone tipped over the Easter basket and eggs bounced off each other.. Some seriously damaged cars (from what I heard a couple write offs) and some drivers took some serious abuse to their bodies. Race black flagged and clock kept running, oops 25 minutes under black flag, race over.


I’m saving this as-is because every word of it totally pisses me off. Not because people were hurt and we should somehow observe a solemn period, but because it’s the kind of BS I expect from internet idiots without any experience with close/pack racing, NOT one of our own. We need to examine this as closely as the FACTS will allow and hopefully learn from it, not use it against ourselves to further a negative and largely undeserved stereotype.
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#9
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Steve, as usual you know it all and you've seen the videos. Well guess what I can post two video's (do a simple search and you'll find both videos.) which show the YELLOW outside entry to T7 and neither car slows until they get real close to the accident. I'm sorry to all as per Steve only non pack drivers are expected to view the yellows. If you watched Cooper's video you'll find the yellow came out about the time he was turning in at T7. He may have missed the YELLOW. There's another video from a car behind Cooper's which shows the yellow all ready out. They all should have been slowing when they observed the YELLOW at the T7 station or viewed the dust and such on track.

 

The solution would be to have systems where flag lights come on in EACH car's dash as said flag is shown. They have said systems at short tracks. Then for drivers who do not pay respect to flags/lights they get a suspension of some sort. Steve how many drivers with serious injury's and cars do we have to total before finding a solution? 

 

Guess what, they have said systems for road race tracks. I'd guess there are also other systems. 

 

https://nevermissafl...erts to drivers.

 

Had this system been in use I'd suggest not nearly as many driver body injuries and car damage would have occurred. And if drivers failed this system the drivers have their SCCA drivers license taken away. 


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#10
DrDomm

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What makes you think I haven’t? I saw some of those videos long before they were public and several more since. I have not yet seen any where someone ignored a visible yellow before the big impact, perhaps you can share that? There is in-car of the guy who hit the pink car after it landed, at the end of the incident, and I can’t spot a yellow even then. He comes out of T7, spots trouble far ahead and is hard on the brakes but simply guesses wrong as to where the other cars will land, taking to the grass where there is zero traction. Everyone around him is also locking up the brakes.

 

I'm that guy.  Never saw a yellow.  My video confirms that.  From my data, I am from half to full braking as I thought I could avoid by sneaking by on the left.  As the cloud of smoke covered the entire track, I went off it to the left.  In hindsight it didn't work.

 


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#11
Bench Racer

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Domm, I would agree with you no yellow as you would have viewed the station in T7, you were 3 cars ahead Cooper as the yellow came out as Cooper started turn in for T7.


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#12
Steve Scheifler

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Domm, I would agree with you no yellow as you would have viewed the station in T7, you were 3 cars ahead Cooper as the yellow came out as Cooper started turn in for T7.


Read all that again and explain why everything you posted before isn’t total BS? Cooper got there AFTER all the major impacts. You just said yellow came out AFTER he turned in at T7, SO AS I SAID it was too late to make any difference, nobody missed or ignored a yellow. WTF Bench? My point from the start was that your initial post completely misrepresented what lead to the carnage. Admit I was right or you have zero credibility.
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#13
Steve Scheifler

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Steve, as usual you know it all and you've seen the videos….


EXACT quote from me that you then completely ignore so you can attack me with total nonsense:

“I have not yet seen any where someone ignored a visible yellow before the big impact, perhaps you can share that?”
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#14
Bench Racer

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Steve, go to "video spec Miata race 2022 June sprints" and watch the video's. You should be able to view the same information I've been posting about. I'll not post the vides because you'll torture what you view to further your cause. I believe there was no YELLOW flag for Domm to view. Cooper likely would have been looking at his turn in view point when the YELLOW flag came out. After that everyone should have slowed down.

 

I noticed you've not commented on the link posted by me https://nevermissafl...erts to drivers".


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#15
Steve Scheifler

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Steve, go to "video spec Miata race 2022 June sprints" and watch the video's. You should be able to view the same information I've been posting about. I'll not post the vides because you'll torture what you view to further your cause. I believe there was no YELLOW flag for Domm to view. Cooper likely would have been looking at his turn in view point when the YELLOW flag came out. After that everyone should have slowed down.

I noticed you've not commented on the link posted by me https://nevermissafl...erts to drivers".


You don’t get it, I’ve SEEN the videos, some long before they were posted online. There is NOTHING to support your original post. But now you keep talking about cars that weren’t involved in the incident at all. Ignoring flags and mid-packers back were NOT the issue here, admit it.
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#16
Steve Scheifler

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And as for the electronic systems, what’s that got to do with your first paragraph being total BS?? I’m well aware of multiple such systems, so what?
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#17
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I watched another spectator video on Spec Miata Man Drama viewing how this accident started. Plenty of cars ahead and after the video car YELLOW flag didn't slow down until to late. There were two different crunches to the video car as it went through the crash mess.

 

I was wrong, the car which started the whole crash started from 7th. If the SCCA had a "never miss a flag system" not nearly as much driver injury and car damage would have occurred, agreed. 

 

This crash damage instantly reminded me and fired me up because 3-4 years ago for the June Sprints I loaned my Spec Miata with STL decals (to get finishes for the Runoffs) to a friend and he came within a few feet of buying the car per our agreement. He was some distance behind a car on the front straight with a car drafting close behind him. The car ahead went off into the gravel in T1, never lifted and came back on track perpendicular to the track. The guy driving my car turned right and missed the car coming back on track and the drafting car T-Boned said car. Two cars were totaled. I wrote a letter suggesting when a car is off 4 wheels off track it remains off track until  told/waved by corner to reenter the track. Was told by the SCCA to go pound sand. 

 

Steve, do you have a solution to lessen the driver injury and car damage when a YELLOW flag condition exists?


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#18
Steve Scheifler

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Steve, do you have a solution to lessen the driver injury and car damage when a YELLOW flag condition exists?

In this particular case, only the implementation of an electronic system which I’ve already supported multiple times. I’m not sure how much help it would have been here, possibly some for the first big hit but I suspect not, and maybe not even for the second hit on the pink car given when the regular flags were displayed. This was one of those terrible incidents that bring out everyone’s pet complaint whether or not they apply. I find all that noise counterproductive, just as I do with most gun control debates.

Based only on the available video it appears to me that the black car had no control and no intent to return to the pavement, probably hit the brakes and uneven grip in dirt & grass sent him that way before he knew what was happening. I do not believe missed or ignored flags paid a significant role in car damage, or any in injuries.
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Ron Alan

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Bench...you are like the dog with a Tennis ball who wants you to throw it for him but wont give it to you :(

 

Steve's original point is 1000% correct. How you started this thread is completely the wrong approach if you actually want to have a meaningful conversation about rules and safety.

 

Be a flame thrower if you like and dont admit it...just be prepared to be pissed on.

 

 

Ironically I had a conversation with a driver I respect and who runs at the front. Conceptually, a system that gives drivers a faster or more immediate heads up is a fabulous idea. But we would still rely on humans to implement. In this perfect storm I think nothing changes...sadly.


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#20
Jim Drago

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Steve, yes it was observed on the track Jumbo screen in T5. It was observed on a spectators video. It was observed on a drivers video who trailed the start of the accident. From the video car, there was a YELLOW flag at the flag station outside track at the beginning of T7. NO ONE in the view of the camera lifted until on top of the accident. The accident was approx. midway between T7 and T8, large tree right side track. The POINT being which you well know, in general Spec Miata drivers do not lift for yellow flags. Please come back with reply AFTER you've watched some videos or talked with drivers involved, not feed back from drivers not involved. $hit happens is not the answer, slowing down for YELLOW flags is the answer. Likely there would have been car contact except not at full song. Not with serious injuries and not with totaled cars.

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I have to go back, but was the yellow displayed to anyone before they hit Rowan ?  I gave Preston his spot back as we avoided Fornetti bouncing offf the wall at or just after the kink.  I assumed I passed him under the yellow and gave his spot back.  I actually did not, the first yellow I saw was before braking into Canada.  So they were VERY slow getting that flag out.  I thought from my car, they were fast with flag as I thought it was for Fornetti into the wall at the kink, but it was for the crash in 7. I started two spots behiond Rowan and passed him into 1.. but he could not have been tthat far behiind us.   


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