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WTF June Sprints Sat. Race Lasted 7 Turns Of Lap 1.

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#21
Jim Drago

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Steve, as usual you know it all and you've seen the videos. Well guess what I can post two video's (do a simple search and you'll find both videos.) which show the YELLOW outside entry to T7 and neither car slows until they get real close to the accident. I'm sorry to all as per Steve only non pack drivers are expected to view the yellows. If you watched Cooper's video you'll find the yellow came out about the time he was turning in at T7. He may have missed the YELLOW. There's another video from a car behind Cooper's which shows the yellow all ready out. They all should have been slowing when they observed the YELLOW at the T7 station or viewed the dust and such on track.

 

The solution would be to have systems where flag lights come on in EACH car's dash as said flag is shown. They have said systems at short tracks. Then for drivers who do not pay respect to flags/lights they get a suspension of some sort. Steve how many drivers with serious injury's and cars do we have to total before finding a solution? 

 

Guess what, they have said systems for road race tracks. I'd guess there are also other systems. 

 

https://nevermissafl...erts to drivers.

 

Had this system been in use I'd suggest not nearly as many driver body injuries and car damage would have occurred. And if drivers failed this system the drivers have their SCCA drivers license taken away. 

 

Bench

Im all for anything in the name of safety.. But if the yellow had not been thrown it would not show up in the car? As I said, I did not get a yellow until I was nearly into t12 and I didnt see any yellow in any of the crash videos?  Did I miss one?   I know it sucks, but this may have just been a terrible incident that was for the most part unavoidable?  I'm sure everyone could have done a little better, but I dont think it stops any of the big hits into Rowans car, maybe Domms? 


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#22
Jim Drago

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This is what I posted from FB

 

June Sprints race 1.
I realize there were very extreme circumstances with a major crash and injuries in Saturdays race and I do not want to make light of that in any way. If the timing of this post seems insensitive, I apologize in advance. I just feel it needs to be addressed to avoid it happening in the future. In no way should we have rushed or done anything but the best possible medical and safety team response to what was probably the worse, if not one of the worst wrecks I have seen in my 18 years in Sm. I think the safety crew did just that, so I would like to thank them for a stellar job. It was and should have been priority one.
 
However at some point , we(SCCA) were going back racing, whether that be with us in group 1 or what eventually happened where they started with group two. We went black flag immemdiately and allowed the clock to continue. I don't know if I had seen another incident more deserving of a red flag? I dont think anyone who saw that wreck or drove by had any doubts there were injuries, most of saying a prayer in the car that there were no fatalities. We all knew they would not be able to clean that mess up and tend to the drivers in 20-25 minutes, impossible. I am not saying Chicago region did anything 'wrong" But what could have or perhaps should we have done differently? You would think a contingency plan for such a crash or wall damage or something similiar is in place? or would hope so? Why didn't they red flag and stop the clock? Does the red even stop the clock? If not, shouldn't someone stop the clock? Perhaps they could have given us 3-5 green laps and cut the other races back a lap or two? Why couldnt they perhaps rent the track an additional hour? Run our race last? Even take a collection of $50 a driver to help with track rental? They could have called a meeting similiar to the meeting after black flagging our entire Q session at the runoffs in 2020. I know the general rule of thumb is well you guys did this to yourselves, stop being so aggressive etc. This was not that, it was a mistake. 70 drivers should not lose the entire race for a very unfortuante accident that could have been any of us, in any class. I guess my point is, SM made up roughly 20% of the entire entries and we had no race at all on Saturday. Most all of us towed a long distance to get there with diesel fuel up of 5.50 a gallon along with all the other expenses and literally spent thousands to be there. We also had championships being decided. There is no way that "race" or any race less than "X" laps should ever have count other than as a start, it was 7 corners long. It didnt effect me personally as I was not involved in the points championship. I don't know just left there very frustrated and feel it could have been handled better. Perhaps they were limited by rules and procedures, but sometimes you need to do what is right, regardless of rules and procedures. The Sprints is my favorite event of the year, Elkhart in general is one of my most favorite places on earth, but I feel that SM has been treated poorly there on several occasions. From the disaster of the Sprints back in circa 2012 where they blew the grid and started cars 15-50 before cars 1-14 and had a mad scrum at the splitter almost running him over that resulted in a huge wreck into turn 5 as cars 1-14 tried to get back to the front. We were all eventually given with a $75 check for our troubles. In 2020 where the class collectively blew 100k plus in tires so the class could be spoken down to like little children in some sort of display of who is boss here. Then this weekend where we were completely deprived of a race. We as a class deserve better!
 
 
 

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#23
Tim Wright

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I don't have an opinion here, but thought I would share this.

At a Nasa 25hr, a Miata lost power on track at night and was hit at over 100mph next to me. The driver survived with a very serious concussion. The car we where driving had a yellow warning light on the roof of the car that we where to employ if our car was dead on track. I shared that with the steward and NASA now uses it on all cars entered.

https://www.ioportra...-jaws-i/o-port/

 

Maybe timing and scoring could implement a light on all cars during a yellow? I

dont know?



#24
Steve Scheifler

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I honestly don’t see much potential benefit for daylight events. It certainly would not have changed anything in this case and it’s more than a little rare for a stopped car to be mistaken for a moving one and end up getting hit. Other than the latency, in-car warning systems are the best upgrade (but not replacement IMO).
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#25
Ron Alan

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If there was ever a need for a red flag...this was it, no doubt! It would have definitely allowed for safety to do their work without the distraction of 60 cars rolling by slowly. At some point pace car would come around and pick up leader as a black would come out...or just go from red to waving black. Drivers should not be driving back thru a serious incident. Stopping on track for awhile changes nothing and has the benefit of a little less anxiety.

 

Ironically, the one upside or benefit to the way SCCA does their schedules is the amount of down time they use between sessions. At least in SFR...I have seen them alter or utilize this downtime in the schedule to try and "makeup" lost time and get racers their time. Even gone as far as shortening lunch...god forbid.

 

Tims comment about the mandatory Jaws light we utilize in the 25HR changes nothing. That light is driver activated and serves to try and keep a car visible at night if for some reason it loses all power and blacks out(light is direct to battery)...and it works fabulous for this purpose. But it would be pointless in daylight...though we did use it during the day to signal safety to come get us!


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#26
Bench Racer

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From reading VIR tried out the in car alert/never miss a flag in 2017. Has anyone road raced where the in car alert system is used?

 

https://virnow.com/f...-alert-and-vir/

 

Included for YELLOW flag situations should be a rule change of specified percent reduction in MPH within yellow flag areas. Not meaning drivers should JAM on the brakes.


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#27
Tim Wright

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If there was ever a need for a red flag...this was it, no doubt! It would have definitely allowed for safety to do their work without the distraction of 60 cars rolling by slowly. At some point pace car would come around and pick up leader as a black would come out...or just go from red to waving black. Drivers should not be driving back thru a serious incident. Stopping on track for awhile changes nothing and has the benefit of a little less anxiety.

 

Ironically, the one upside or benefit to the way SCCA does their schedules is the amount of down time they use between sessions. At least in SFR...I have seen them alter or utilize this downtime in the schedule to try and "makeup" lost time and get racers their time. Even gone as far as shortening lunch...god forbid.

 

Tims comment about the mandatory Jaws light we utilize in the 25HR changes nothing. That light is driver activated and serves to try and keep a car visible at night if for some reason it loses all power and blacks out(light is direct to battery)...and it works fabulous for this purpose. But it would be pointless in daylight...though we did use it during the day to signal safety to come get us!

 

Ron, I was thinking the light could be in the car triggered by timing and scoring??? (I dont know much about these things)



#28
Ron Alan

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(I dont know much about these things)

You are 100% correct! 


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#29
Steve Scheifler

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You are 100% correct!


That wasn’t nice. :)
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Steve Scheifler

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Ron, I was thinking the light could be in the car triggered by timing and scoring??? (I dont know much about these things)


There are multiple competing systems now with warning lights inside each car to supplement the flagging system. Depending on the system and how it is implemented, the lights can be triggered directly from a corner station, by race control, and even automatically by sensors detecting an accident. CHAMP/CHUMP car already requires all cars to have their choice of system installed.
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#31
EMatoy

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The system used by Champ (flagtronics) works well. We have used it at multiple events. However it would do nothing to help prevent THIS incident. In this case the flags did not come out soon enough or far enough away from the incident (no time for them to react with the flags which gave the drivers no time to respond to the flag).

For other incidents this type of system could help. It also gives race control information if someone ignores a flag…

#32
Ron Alan

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Not to worry Steve...Tim is a friend...and you dont pass up easy opportunities to poke :hugegrin:

 

Years ago one of our local people create the Trackflag app. You had/have to run on your phone in your 25HR car. By no means is it an instant early warning but definitely functions as designed and a good tool. Only limitation as with any app is cell service/wifi...both of which years ago were always sketchy at Thunderhill...gotten better.


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#33
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Should have been a 25 minute race and the race lasted 7 turns of lap 1 and the back half of the field showed their skill.  :banghead:  They came off T7 and bounced around like someone tipped over the Easter basket and eggs bounced off each other.. Some seriously damaged cars (from what I heard a couple write offs) and some drivers took some serious abuse to their bodies. Race black flagged and clock kept running, oops 25 minutes under black flag, race over. 

 

Video from Cooper Lilly coming through after the massive accident. Quick hands Cooper. In the video I counted 7 cars, then 1 at the Kink and number 14 off in T12. My guess would be there were more cars involved after the after T7 massive accident which continued on their way. 

 

 

Hi Bench, Your posts suck as does does your analysis and assumptions. There were no yellows, no one at fault for an egregious mistake, plenty of people lifted, and your criticism unwarranted.

 

:bs:


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#34
Bench Racer

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Shaffer, your "no yellows" is absolute BS. IF you were to watch car # 69 video (video posted for said reason) turn in at T7 you'd view the YELLOW come out at T7 as driver was turning in. Wouldn't expect car # 69 to view yellow as driver was viewing turn in. After car # 69 all should have viewed the YELLOW. Flag station at T7 is just before turn in. 


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#35
-P-

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Shaffer, your "no yellows" is absolute BS. IF you were to watch car # 69 video (video posted for said reason) turn in at T7 you'd view the YELLOW come out at T7 as driver was turning in. Wouldn't expect car # 69 to view yellow as driver was viewing turn in. After car # 69 all should have viewed the YELLOW. Flag station at T7 is just before turn in. 

 

Cooper was the last one through the corner with any possibility for an issue and the yellow didn't fly until he was about to apex affording him plenty of time. Every other car involved was before the yellow and had little to no time to react.  My view still stands that your analysis and assumptions suck and you're a prick for pointing fingers at others.

 

Don't be that guy.


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#36
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Shaffer? Is that -P-? Doesn’t matter. You are correct that AFTER all the serious carnage a FEW, very few, blew the yellow and the result sounded like one or two unnecessary additional dents. I made that point in the comments of the YouTube video because nobody else did, and comments were turned off. BUT compare that to the actual wording of your original post and it’s as if the two scenes aren’t even from the same incident, there WERE NO YELLOWS relevant to 99% of the carnage you were going off about it. Just for once, admit you had it wrong and move one, it won’t kill you.

Hi Steve. Not hard to figure that Shaffer = P from my mazdaracer profile?

 

For the people involved in body damage there were no yellows. It won't kill you to not have an opinion for once.

 

Btw do you have a hood and passenger fender? I'll be passing through St Louis in a couple of weeks on my way back to Dallas from Cleveland and need to rebuild from a new chassis.

 

Edit: Lions Choice or Imo's is on me.


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#37
Steve Scheifler

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Hi Steve. Not hard to figure that Shaffer = P from my mazdaracer profile?

For the people involved in body damage there were no yellows. It won't kill you to not have an opinion for once.

Btw do you have a hood and passenger fender? I'll be passing through St Louis in a couple of weeks on my way back to Dallas from Cleveland and need to rebuild from a new chassis.

Edit: Lions Choice or Imo's is on me.

Even had I been interested enough at the moment it would have required switching out of the default mobile version and then find the name change history on an assumption it would be there. My focus was elsewhere. And the video I saw absolutely showed (more heard) relatively minor contact by cars that blew the yellow, no question. Had it been noted it should have resulted in discipline because it was pretty blatant, did cause contact, and could, indeed almost certainly would, have been worse had the track been more obstructed.

For parts, no, I have nothing anymore since the fire but I’ll ask the local Miata club. You are obviously familiar with tye local cuisine :).
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#38
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