52 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Bench,

 

FYI

 

The normal flagging station for that turn is driver left visible at the 7-8 second mark.  Juan's camera is a bit out of focus but I don't see any yellow waving.  The flag waving on the inside is indeed up a hill and not really visible at the point that would have helped to save Juan and Mike.

 

 

John,

 

As for target fixation, I don't think so.  Looks like Juan was trying to brake in a straight line once he determined there was not chance to avoid the other car.

 

I don't think Juan was trying to brake straight, his wheel is hard to the right but his braking locked the tires preventing a turn.

 

Sucks, sorry Juan.  What caused the spin?  Fluid or ride height too low?

[Juan Pineda]

Thanks for all the input on fixing the car!

 

About what happened, the slide began when I ran over the black rubber base left behind after the barrels/sticks had been knocked down earlier in the session. You can see it in the video if you look for it. I came in a little hot, and seeing no barrel/sticks in the way I did not lift or fight it, putting me a little deeper than usual. This is a very common situation with the barrels and driving into the runoff like that. I have never had a problem with that before, but this time it sent my car skidding. It looks like I caught the skid, but not with enough road to avoid going off track. Unfortunately Mike was stopped out there directly in the path. I went two feet in when it looked like contact was inevitable.

 

I have thought about what I might have done differently. I could have gone both feet in immediately at the beginning of the spin. If you look at my vector at that point, I'm pretty sure I would have still slid into Mike, but going backwards. Another approach would have been to not brake after I caught the car and continue to try to drive it. Maybe I could have affected the path sufficiently to go across Mike's bow instead of contact. But it would have upped the stakes with a much greater impact velocity had we hit. And I didn't know where Mike was going, especially as Mike was rolling forward slowly.

 

Obviously, the best approach would have been to avoid going into the runoff. I certainly would have done that if there was a yellow. But I think I made a reasonable decision given the lack of a yellow. Then had I spotted the base, I could have avoided it, although we run over those things all the time without this much drama.

 

I'm not sure why the T14 stand (at the end of the straight) was not displaying a yellow. Mike said that the turn worker was displaying it earlier, but took it down. I sent an Email to head of flagging to follow up. My concern is that perhaps they followed the standard protocol thinking that the yellow in T15 is sufficient. It clearly is not. So if that's what happened then we need to change that protocol. In fact we treat T14/T15 as a single turn, so the flag that counts is the one at T14.

 

As usual in crashes, it wasn't just one thing that went wrong. The lack of flag, the stopped car, and the siren call of downed barrels/sticks all contributed. The important thing is that we all walked away, which is a testament to the safety of these little cars and our gear. I have no injuries except for a very little bit of soreness, but Mike had some knee pain after.

 

-Juan

[Keith Andrews]

What a bummer.  I feel your pain.  It is such a nice build.

 

I've done worse and would guess it is fixable as you suggest.  

 

Looking at your left front bumper nipple, radiator, and the general location of your headlights it just doesn't look that bad via the internet.

 

I hope the pro's at your body shop can get you fixed up. 

[Jim Drago]

Juan

Car is definitely fixable, bring it to someone reputable so it is straight when done.  You dont need a tub IMO

 

What about the other car'? I imagine he was not very happy at all, how bad is his car?

 

Jim

[Bad Rusty]

The other car is one of our pit mates in the "corrall" and probably one of the nicest guys you've ever met. Im guessing they all worked together to get cars running again, happens all the time,

Jim, you'll get to meet us all at Laguna next year I hope.

[Rob Burgoon]

Juan, I wouldn't worry about dropping tires, that's to be expected.  It's what's happening after dropping the tires that's worth worrying about.

[Juan Pineda]

About Mike's car, everyone pitched in to fix it, and he raced on Sunday. The door and fender needed to be reworked. The upper A arm, upright, shock, and tie rod were replaced. It all lined up after, but the max camber is now a little more favorable on that side. Bonus!

[Kevin Anderson]

That's nothing, couple hours on frame machine and new radiator support

[Todd Lamb]

Sorry to hear this Juan! Bummer for sure. Looks like you can get it fixed.

 

Solution: When the car jumps out from under you, countersteer AND LIFT!

[Juan Pineda]

Hey everyone, thanks for the good thoughts and comments! I have had many offers of help even outside this thread.

 

About Todd's point, it is a good one. I know that many drivers are very skilled at driving the car sideways and I suspect there are some that could have recovered the car. In my case, I have a relatively narrow range in which I am successful. More often than not in this severe a situation I would end up backwards. Usually I do ease off the throttle as Todd suggests. But in this case, I remember a decision to stay in it as the rear started to come around. It was reflex and just what felt right at the moment. I was pretty sure the car was going around and was surprised that it did not. As I replay the video now, I don't think the presence of the car in the runoff had registered at the moment of the decision as my attention was on how deep I was going into the exit. Obviously in this case, one benefit of having moderated the throttle is a lower impact speed or the possibility of more traction to control the car once it was recovered.

 

-Juan

(Chief NTSB investigator )

[Juan Pineda]

Spent the day with Mike Haag pulling the engine and cleaning things up. Here are some pictures. Both rails are damaged similarly. Basically bent 30-45 degrees just forward of the shock tower. There is also a small kink in the driver's side rail between the firewall and shock tower. All the cross pieces in the nose are mushed up badly. The wheels appear to be pointed straight. Are we still optimistic it can be fixed?

 

-Juan

 

 

 

 

[Mark]

All fixable. I had a 1.6 car accordian the LF frame rail much worse than yours and the frame shop pulled it out. I was sure that they would want to put a new clip on it but they pulled it instead. The cost wasn't that terrible either. Either way they go (clip / no clip) this is very fixable. 

[Juan Pineda]

A followup. I asked the chief of flagging why there was no flag in T14. It's because they had a standing yellow displayed in T15, so the protocol says that the preceding flag station need not display a flag. This is the current procedure that they follow for those turns.

 

Obviously this is not very helpful in this kind of situation because 1) the T15 flag does not actually provide any advance notice about the conditions in T15, and 2) the T15 flag station is difficult to see. One of the big problems with that flag is that it appears for literally only one second before you have gone past it. The other issue is that it is very far off to the side of your view at a time when your attention is usually directed forward to make your marks.

 

I have discussed with him the possibility that the T14 flag station echo any T15 flags. In general, I think that's what drivers are expecting there. Yes?

 

Also I learned that the other car hit the same pylon base that I hit. In his case it sent him around to end up on the exit berm facing oncoming traffic. He was just gathering up when I came around and got caught out by the same treacherous object.