856 replies to this topic

[wparente]

First off I am not a Miata hater, I own two of them. That being said I considered racing Spec Miata but after analyzing what it took to run at the pointy end of the pack, I bowed out. I went to the dark side and purchased a Spec Racer Ford. I don’t have to worry about who has the best engine and or transmission. They are all sealed and are within about 1 horsepower of each other. Seldom if ever has anyone motored past me on the straight at Road America in a Major.  I run mid pack and occasionally towards the front, but not often. I have no excuses for where I place other than the lose nut behind the wheel. I don’t have to worry about who built my engine and if it’s legal, or if the other guys engine builder is on the board of directors trying to lobby for an advantage to put more money in his pocket. I would suggest that you all start another class with sealed (dynoed within 1 hp) engines and transmissions and see which Miata class grows faster, the spec class or the class where the current modifications are allowed!

Enterprise couldn’t have ever come up with a better advertising campaign to entice you guys over to our side equal to the latest debacle with Spec Miata at the runoffs and it didn’t cost them a dime. I invite all of you to come on over and have some real fun with some guys that are just a little bit crazy even though it’s bound to move me a little further back in the pack.

Bill Parenteau

 

P.S. As far as the comment above on sealed engines being expensive, I don't know the Miata costs but I believe I can buy close to two or more sealed engines for the price of one Miata engine from one of the more well known Miata engine builders discussed in these posts and know for a fact that I have one that at it's worst is 1 hp less than the best.

[Ken SM94]

All,

 

I do have an illegal head but don't see any useful purpose in posting pictures it.  Besides not being able to see the area in question very well, I don't want to argue the details of this particular head.  The head I have is irrelevant.

 

The tech personnel told us that they were "surprised at the varying degree to which the protested heads were modified - even among engines built by the same builder".  I have no idea of what they actually looked like, but that's what he said.

 

As far as the head I have, visualize die grinder marks at the plunge cut where it intersects the port on the STR in the intake valve ports.  The same in the exhaust STR only this time with a sanding wheel.  Virtually no texture left from the aluminum casting and tough to tell how much has been removed.  Aggressive wire wheel on everything. 

 

This stuff is around the corner (mostly) in the head and tough to see unless you have a good light and are standing there looking at it. 

[Rob Burgoon]

Dental mirror and a good light, por favor.

[Todd Green]

I feel bad for the people that didn't get what they expected from their motor builder but when 20 plus cars run under the track record at the Glen major (or just about every major this year) what did they think was going on?

How much did the change from the SM6 to SM7 factor into this?  (Genuine question, since I've been running Toyos until this year, and have no first hand experience on the SM6.)

[Jim Creighton]

Before you start urging the rules folks to make what was found at the Runoffs legal (compliant), I will warn you that this is what causes rules creep and expense to all involved in the class. Once this happens, someone will find another place to fudge the rules and suddenly all the fast guys will have it. Then, that too will get caught and because the front guys have already spent the $$, all must do it and so on. And in the end, you will have an E Production car. We started in production in 1972 and it was mostly as delivered. Now, there nothing on the car as delivered.

If you make blending the cut legal, the blend will start to drift further until porting is allowed. Of course, then the motor will need more fuel and a higher compression ratio. Get the drift?

Is that what all want? If so, I'll see you in impound since I am production category chief for the Runoffs. If you do not want this made legal, I suggest you write the CRB now clearly stating this. Request they clarify the rule but not make it legal. Each of you now has a chance to contribute to the future of SM.

[Kyle Freiheit]

Jim, 

 Great Post.

 

Writing my letter.

 

Kyle

[Caveman-kwebb99]

might think I need to be here only because kyle sucks

You need to go back home and pull the covers over you and Jamie and snuggle up pumpkin boo.

Miss you long time baby cakes!

[Steve Scheifler]

First, I fixed a mistake in the description of the first picture having rotated it along the way. That picture is repeated here. Someone asked if it was an exhaust. No, these are all intakes.

NOTE: These are just the thumbnails, click on them to see the full image.

None of these are great pictures or perfectly focused but they are what I have and do at least give an idea of the size of the modification and where it is. These are all rotated with the short turn radius toward the bottom or lower right and the blending to the left or lower left. In the second image the large light area on the left is from the plunge, and the arrows point to the blend. Similar in the third image but I think what I see is half plunge and half blend.

I certainly would like to get my hands on a couple actual heads and do a better job of this! But what I'm seeing is about what I expected. If these are "average" then there is no reshaping of the throat or even touching the vast majority of the STR. It appears to be a smoothing of just the transition from plunge to raw metal. IMO from this, tech got it right by my reading of the rules, but I also would not have been surprised if the appeal had worked based on the conflicting rules argument. I don't agree with that, but I give weight to obvious intent in the rules.

However, when answering the question of how much difference it makes, well, let's just say that if they get multiple extra HP from this anywhere in the useable power band, then the guys doing it should be with a high-end pro team because they are magicians. Would I do it if I could? Of course. Would I miss a race because my nemesis had it and I didn't? Hell no! I'd bet there would be as much average acceleration difference from marginally less toe or a PSI of tire pressure all around. Get your fish scales out boys! (for the old timers)

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[Alex Bolanos]

How much did the change from the SM6 to SM7 factor into this?  (Genuine question, since I've been running Toyos until this year, and have no first hand experience on the SM6.)

 

Quite a bit, the new tire is better (and faster) in every way.

[Alex Bolanos]

 I would suggest that you all start another class with sealed (dynoed within 1 hp) engines and transmissions and see which Miata class grows faster, the spec class or the class where the current modifications are allowed!

Enterprise couldn’t have ever come up with a better advertising campaign to entice you guys over to our side equal to the latest debacle with Spec Miata at the runoffs and it didn’t cost them a dime. I invite all of you to come on over and have some real fun with some guys that are just a little bit crazy even though it’s bound to move me a little further back in the pack.

Bill Parenteau

 

P.S. As far as the comment above on sealed engines being expensive, I don't know the Miata costs but I believe I can buy close to two or more sealed engines for the price of one Miata engine from one of the more well known Miata engine builders discussed in these posts and know for a fact that I have one that at it's worst is 1 hp less than the best.

 

1. Our fields are closer than SRF more often than not in lap time, our rules are a lot better than they seem.

2. SRF engines have more HP tolerance than 1, I've seen as much as 2-3hp and 4-5tq on the old engine, not sure on the new one.

3. You have certain camps that are always near the front just like we do.

4. SCCA Enterprise cannot take on another class without major changes, if all of you actually wanted to pay THIRTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS to upgrade your cars to the gen 3... you'd get a delivery date similar to the iPhone 7.

5. We have more fun than you because we have roofs we can land on and when we bump it doesn't eliminate our water cooling system.

[High Chair]

You need to go back home and pull the covers over you and Jamie and snuggle up pumpkin boo.

Miss you long time baby cakes!

Wow! That is special coming from the Caveman. Winter is coming when do you go into hibernation?

[FTodaro]

First, I fixed a mistake in the description of the first picture having rotated it along the way. That picture is repeated here. Someone asked if it was an exhaust. No, these are all intakes.

NOTE: These are just the thumbnails, click on them to see the full image.

None of these are great pictures or perfectly focused but they are what I have and do at least give an idea of the size of the modification and where it is. These are all rotated with the short turn radius toward the bottom or lower right and the blending to the left or lower left. In the second image the large light area on the left is from the plunge, and the arrows point to the blend. Similar in the third image but I think what I see is half plunge and half blend.

I certainly would like to get my hands on a couple actual heads and do a better job of this! But what I'm seeing is about what I expected. If these are "average" then there is no reshaping of the throat or even touching the vast majority of the STR. It appears to be a smoothing of just the transition from plunge to raw metal. IMO from this, tech got it right by my reading of the rules, but I also would not have been surprised if the appeal had worked based on the conflicting rules argument. I don't agree with that, but I give weight to obvious intent in the rules.

However, when answering the question of how much difference it makes, well, let's just say that if they get multiple extra HP from this anywhere in the useable power band, then the guys doing it should be with a high-end pro team because they are magicians. Would I do it if I could? Of course. Would I miss a race because my nemesis had it and I didn't? Hell no! I'd bet there would be as much average acceleration difference from marginally less toe or a PSI of tire pressure all around. Get your fish scales out boys! (for the old timers)

Thank you this helps understand what we are dealing with and what to look for.

 

My suspension was and is that while this is deemed illegal the practical impact is small maybe not even measurable.

 

At the end of the day the violation was just a technicality, enough to get six people tossed at the Runoffs. 

 

If the rule is modified to allow this and I had a compliant head i sure would not spend the 1000.00 to have this added to my head.

 

Lets get the rule clarified and lets get back to racing this was not exactly the reckoning that some thought it would be. 

 

To me, whistlegate is a much bigger deal, relative to a performance gain because we were talking about measurable HP. and TQ

[Steve Scheifler]

I saw that according to one person, tech commented on the range of conspicuousness. I am assuming that while some May have been more than my examples, none amounted to reshaping a significant part of the STR or even extending on around the edge of it.

If someone has seen more radical examples, at least describe it to us.

And yes, Whistlegate was more significant and without any credible defense.

[MPR22]

All,
 
I do have an illegal head but don't see any useful purpose in posting pictures it.  Besides not being able to see the area in question very well, I don't want to argue the details of this particular head.  The head I have is irrelevant.
 
The tech personnel told us that they were "surprised at the varying degree to which the protested heads were modified - even among engines built by the same builder".  I have no idea of what they actually looked like, but that's what he said.
 
As far as the head I have, visualize die grinder marks at the plunge cut where it intersects the port on the STR in the intake valve ports.  The same in the exhaust STR only this time with a sanding wheel.  Virtually no texture left from the aluminum casting and tough to tell how much has been removed.  Aggressive wire wheel on everything. 
 
This stuff is around the corner (mostly) in the head and tough to see unless you have a good light and are standing there looking at it.

I believe I misunderstood your original post. I thought you had an illegal head from this years runoffs I your possession. If you just have an illegal head that you got from another racer to see what was done. What is the chain of custody on that part. Did you reciev the part directly from an engine builder or did you get it second hand? I am taking your word there are tool marks in the non gray area. I have heard of plenty of cheated up heads. Full port jobs to the massaging and media blasting of the ports to bide the work.

I have also heard of lightened fly wheels, lightened cranks, .040 over pistons. 11-1 cr heads........the list goes on.

I have also seen, i I mentioned earlier a huge variance between cylinder heads on 1.6 castings. Ones I know have never been touched and you would swear they couldn't be from the same manufacturer due to the differences throughout. I have been told but not verified that the 99 heads have significant variances also.

I am all for cutting out the shenanigans but I'm not going to jump on the hang the cheaters bandwagon until I have seen evidence of the infractions. My guess is there is varying degrees of "gray" in the tech shed. Builders building to a whistler, that is just blatant cheating not dabbling in the gray. Making sure a burr from a plunge cut doesn't come off during operation of the engine is a reasonable machining practice. Going around the corner and getting into the port is clearly outside the gray. Which of the yel are we talking about. Or is it somewhere in between. My guess is it fell much closer to the burr being removed for two reasons:
1. Engine builder would be crazy to send a blatantly massaged port or STR to the runoffs. Especially knowing the driver would face full tech.
2. The SCCA didn't DQ the offending heads. If there was clear evidence of massaged ports and STR then the SCCA would have DQ not place at the back of the field. They DQd the 88 for a non compliant unshrouding of a valve. That is just as blAck and white as tool marks in the ports.

Typed this on my cracked screen iPhone. Will be happy to edit when I get to a real computer.

[Yiannis Tsiounis]

Sealing engines doesn't solve everything - but it does change some. Here are a few examples:

 

A) Makes it more expensive for the mid-pack to DFL to go racing which will hurt the car counts on regional/local levels.

 

It holds the engine builders accountable for these kinds of... situations. Rotax (karting) series has got the spec stuff down to as good a science as possible. Was the motor illegal? That service/seal center gets fined and is possibly banned indefinitely. This creates a self policing system in itself for the shops. 

 

C) There are still "A" engines - with all the parts matching while searching for those magic clearance numbers, there are still expensive "pro" motors etc.... 

 

Take this as whatever you like, or as just a general comment to the bigger picture as well as my first post on a new forum! 

 

Remember we all do this for FUN! 

I was told that the Washington DC region is using sealed Spec SSM engines, and their car counts are the highest of most (40-ish, for regional races!), and they love so much the racing and the competition that they are not interested in going anywhere else. I'd be all over that deal if Summit Point wasn't pretty far away from me and a track that I don't particularly like. 

 

Mike "Meathead" Collins should be able to enlighten us on whether the above statement is accurate, as his shop is right next to Summit Point. 

[Steve Scheifler]

BTW, for those people so sure none of the builders would knowingly send a customer to the Runoffs with a non-compliant engine, it has certainly been done before.

Ask yourself this: if not for the recent Whistlegate, how many cars would also have been nailed for compression when they were CC'd at the Runoffs?

[Yiannis Tsiounis]

Before you start urging the rules folks to make what was found at the Runoffs legal (compliant), I will warn you that this is what causes rules creep and expense to all involved in the class. Once this happens, someone will find another place to fudge the rules and suddenly all the fast guys will have it. Then, that too will get caught and because the front guys have already spent the $$, all must do it and so on. And in the end, you will have an E Production car. We started in production in 1972 and it was mostly as delivered. Now, there nothing on the car as delivered.

If you make blending the cut legal, the blend will start to drift further until porting is allowed. Of course, then the motor will need more fuel and a higher compression ratio. Get the drift?

Is that what all want? If so, I'll see you in impound since I am production category chief for the Runoffs. If you do not want this made legal, I suggest you write the CRB now clearly stating this. Request they clarify the rule but not make it legal. Each of you now has a chance to contribute to the future of SM.

 

My vote (again): Do *not* make this legal. Or any other additional modifications for that matter. For all the reasons you mentioned.

[Steve Scheifler]

I was told that the Washington DC region is using sealed Spec SSM engines, and their car counts are the highest of most (40-ish, for regional races!), and they love so much the racing and the competition that they are not interested in going anywhere else. I'd be all over that deal if Summit Point wasn't pretty far away from me and a track that I don't particularly like.

Mike "Meathead" Collins should be able to enlighten us on whether the above statement is accurate, as his shop is right next to Summit Point.

Hmmm.... If someone wants to do that I have a Dynapack (bolt-on, not rollers) and would be willing to switch to running a full-time shop if necessary, testing and sealing engines. I would build a dedicated Miata jig, maybe from an old chassis, that would make it easy to swap engines quickly. That way every engine is baselined with the same intake, exhaust, electronics and mechanical losses.

I don't see the class as a whole headed towards sealed engines, but maybe a subset is possible.

[Parity]

 

I have also seen, i I mentioned earlier a huge variance between cylinder heads on 1.6 castings. Ones I know have never been touched and you would swear they couldn't be from the same manufacturer due to the differences throughout. I have been told but not verified that the 99 heads have significant variances also.

 

It's common to have several tooled sources making the same casting. Their casting tooling and processes will have significant differences.

 

 

 

My vote (again): Do *not* make this legal. Or any other additional modifications for that matter. For all the reasons you mentioned.

 

I agree. Improve rule definition with pictured examples. It will correct the problem and deter rules creeping. Folks will think twice about pushing into gray area.

[Yiannis Tsiounis]

Call me crazy but why allow a plung cut in the first place? Seems like any mod to a head is not spec therefor should have never been allowed. Give a inch and people will try to take 1 1/16th! Stock head with no adjustments Done! I feel bad for the people that didn't get what they expected from their motor builder but when 20 plus cars run under the track record at the Glen major (or just about every major this year) what did they think was going on? This dont ask don't tell mentality is what feeds the problem in the first place. the best drivers are the best drivers and always will be but its a shame that a very talented driver might never have a shot by following the rules.

SM7s are definitely contributing at least a second, if not more, to the lap times at the Glen. In addition, this was the first Major/National race in a long while (at the Glen) where the temperatures were 20-30 degrees cooler than the previous races; we had October temperatures in July. Any one of these two factors would be cause for breaking the record; both of them together helped to obliterate it. 

I cannot speak for the other tracks (I was only in the NJMP majors and I don't think the record was obliterated there), but SM7s are better everywhere (less rolling resistance, better roadholding, way more consistent), with the exception of the SM6 being better for a single hot lap in qualifying (which doesn't count - lap records have to be made in a race).

 

I wish there was an easy answer - such as "use stock heads" - but the tolerances in those heads do vary, and you can try 5 different ones and get 5 different results. Guess what people will end up doing...

 

P.S. We just hit page 31...