856 replies to this topic

[Matt Busby]

Sealing engines doesn't solve everything - but it does change some. Here are a few examples:

 

A) Makes it more expensive for the mid-pack to DFL to go racing which will hurt the car counts on regional/local levels.

 

It holds the engine builders accountable for these kinds of... situations. Rotax (karting) series has got the spec stuff down to as good a science as possible. Was the motor illegal? That service/seal center gets fined and is possibly banned indefinitely. This creates a self policing system in itself for the shops. 

 

C) There are still "A" engines - with all the parts matching while searching for those magic clearance numbers, there are still expensive "pro" motors etc.... 

 

Take this as whatever you like, or as just a general comment to the bigger picture as well as my first post on a new forum! 

 

Remember we all do this for FUN! 

[5X Racing]

This is an awful lot of reading, and I've skimmed most of it. I fail to see many people offering solutions to the problem and offering assistance to get it done though. I think we all understand what happened at Laguna, and what's happening with the engines. Should we now focus on working together and fix it?

 

Danny Steyn has said it tons of times, and he's right, the class needs crystal clear transparency. Which means everybody should know everything about EVERYTHING involving all aspects of our class, the rules, and the cars involved, or at least be given the opportunity to learn about it. Obviously this is not the case as I see a lot of people who are not sure what a plunge cut is or how blending the short radius would help airflow - which is understandable - because not all of us are interested in knowing the fine details of engine design and pay our engine builders to know. However, if we make it very easy for everyone to learn about these things, to know what does what and how it works, and make this information easily accessible to everyone who races, I feel that knowledge will help them understand the rules better and how they relate to whatever it is they're referencing (ie: what exactly a legal plunge cut looks like compared to an OEM one, or what "blending" the short radius looks like as compared to an unblended one). 

 

So with that in mind, here's a few questions I think we should ask ourselves in hoping to find a good solution or more:

 

• Can we re-write the rules from top to bottom and make them crystal clear? 
• Can we put a unit of measure on everything that is measurable (ie: weight, length, diameter, radius, depth, etc...) and make part numbers gospel where applicable? 
• Can we spec and publish the tools used in the tech shed? (the SCCA/NASA will use brand x digital caliper, so your Harbor Freight caliper might read differently. This gives people and engine builders the chance to make sure they're on the same page as the organizations tech team and measurement tools used by them)
• Can we create written and published (in the rule book, NOT from an obscure link on the SCCA webpage or from a manufacturers website) method of testing which involves a tool or machine so we know exactly how the parts will be tested, thus allowing everyone to know exactly what to expect when they get to that point? (ie: Whistler test. Can we publish it in the rules with an SM specific testing method?)
• Can we create more special tools that help tech teams quickly figure out the measurement of difficult to measure parts? We have the go/no-go tools for the ports already and they work great, and they don't require more than 5-minutes for someone to show you how to use them.
• Can we create a more interactive rule book with pictures and illustrated examples of what these things are and what they're supposed to look like? Like the roll cage diagrams in the GCR/CCR but for cylinder heads and other highly technical parts?
• Can we create a website that contains high-def and close up pictures of how things are supposed to look? Or how to use the tools we use in the tech shed so people can test their own engines? (go/no-go tools, Whistler test, shock dyno, etc...) This would be perfect for explaining the heads and the work which is done within them, and if the engine builders are nice enough, they could provide a ton of example pictures to donate. This can also be user-based, allowing people to sign in and post pics, questions, ask advice, or ask legality. Much like this website, but an library of tech focused examples for informational purposes and racer knowledge. This site would be great for hosting it - as most SM racers or interested people come here for SM info - but if Jim isn't interested or too busy to take it on, I'm sure there'd be several who would (myself included, I would be willing to build, host, and maintain it on my site). We can also provide pictures on all aspects of the car, not just engine related. Basically like a reference manual online for people to browse to get an idea of what's legal (and not) and how it should look. Everything from radiator grills to plunge cuts!
• Can we create a nationwide racer based democratic committee that works together and helps with the rules as well as provide their assistance in governing the class? I think it's too big of a job for one (or three) guy(s) alone. Hell, every state in the US has a governor cause the president can't possibly keep track of everything going on, I think our class has gotten to the point to where one person can't possibly keep track of what's going on in CA when they're in FL or vice versa.
• Can we volunteer more of our time? This is a club based class and not a pro one, we can't possibly think our organizations are going to be able to do this alone as well as we could collectively! We pay $200-$500 for our entry fees, which basically pays for track time and oftentimes affords us one or two volunteer tech guys that basically know how to weigh a car and check the plates with a caliper. How much more can we ask for from the organizations based on what we pay? What if more of us pitched in and volunteered at our local races to help with SM tech for the organization? Hell, I get to race for free for doing this in NASA FL and I'm sure your local tech guys would love to not have to do more than weights and plates on their own!
• Please add....

I think the more we educate each other on the cars and possible issues - by whatever means (website, rule books, here, whatever) the less we can say "well, I didn't know" and get tossed at tech or by means of protest. Also, the more we pitch in and help the organizations with our tech and compliance, the more we will learn, understand everything better, and overall the better off we'll be as a whole. We all know that the drivers are the best police of the class, but that's usually relegated to paddock chatter and online. If more people step up and volunteer to help police the class in association with the organizations, the faster it will get cleaned up. You wanna stop crime in a big city? Stop relying on one or three policemen and hire more!

 

Just my thoughts, I got tired of reading of everyone's interpretations of blending a plunge cut and wanted to promote thinking about solutions. The page count is getting too long for most people that are supposed to be working instead of reading!

[Steve Scheifler]

This site is NOT IOS friendly. One browser can post only text but another can post only uploaded images. 😁 Anyway...

Swamped at the moment and need to sift through some stuff I'm getting before I post much, but for an idea of what it's all about here is an example. (Next post from me)

Look way left at 9 o'clock. See the crescent shaped area? That is where the edge of the plunge cut has been blended at the transition into the STR, most of which is then on around the bottom.

Attached Files

•  image.jpg   33.18KB   17 downloads

[Caveman-kwebb99]

John you have a good post there, but who in the world has the time, money are drive to actually do all that?  that is a ton of work for a full time team of paid employees.

[5X Racing]

John you have a good post there, but who in the world has the time, money are drive to actually do all that?  that is a ton of work for a full time team of paid employees.

 

I've been doing this for NASA FL for years! I get free entry fees out of it, and hopefully 10 or so guys that had a good time at the track.

 

We can't possibly think that we're gonna get the level of tech or attention we need based solely on our couple of hundred bucks per race. How much does an MX-5 cup race cost? Runoffs? That's what we'd need to pay to have the level of tech that would actually catch these things we'll be trying to enforce realistically, as I agree with you, you'd need full time employees to handle that and they cost money. I wish it was that way, but those who've been around for a while (and those who've not, even) can attest to the fact that big tech only happens at big races (runoffs). And protests don't always go the way they should (Daytona). 

[MPR22]

FTodaro, modification to the STR makes a difference.  Anyone that says it doesn't or that it is "insignificant" has never flowed a head. 

 

I have one of the heads in question and there is no way you'll get a head built to the rules to flow like it.  We're not talking about knocking off the burr left on the edge.  The STR is critical when the valve is at low lift - initially opening.

 

The restrictor plate does nothing in one of these engines until 6,000 rpms or so.  Every RPM below that point is an advantage that carries all the way through to redline.

 

I have to say that SCCA almost bent over backwards to help us with the protest process.  Many times we heard "this really needed to be done".  We have to understand that we in the SM community are telling tech what to look at (through our SMAC advisors).  At each event the tech people are ONLY looking for the items on that list that is predetermined weeks prior.  Nothing can be added or deleted from that list.

 

If you want to be sure they are looking at the things that you are concerned about you need to protest.  We couldn't get a guarantee that inspection of the STR was on the list so we moved forward with our protest.  Actually, it was pretty clear they never have looked at it.

 

Having "passed tech" only means they found nothing wrong with the items that were on the tech list.

 

 

Ken, 

 

SInce you have one of the heads in question, please take photos of the head and stop the rampant speculation as to what was done that is illegal.  

You are the only one that claims to have the evidence in your possession. 

 

With the photos you should be able to annotate the areas in question.

 

I expect you will also post the name of the participant, name of the engine builder, how you came into possession of the non-compliant head, as I assume SCCA confiscated all the heads at a minimum to do show and tell with their tech team.   

 

After you are have posted pictures the real dialogue can begin.  

 

Right now we have the HANG all of the cheaters group, the its just an misinterpretation of the rules group and everywhere in between groups arguing over something they have no actual  facts about.  

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I've been doing this for NASA FL for years! I get free entry fees out of it, and hopefully 10 or so guys that had a good time at the track.

 

We can't possibly think that we're gonna get the level of tech or attention we need based solely on our couple of hundred bucks per race. How much does an MX-5 cup race cost? Runoffs? That's what we'd need to pay to have the level of tech that would actually catch these things we'll be trying to enforce realistically, as I agree with you, you'd need full time employees to handle that and they cost money. I wish it was that way, but those who've been around for a while (and those who've not, even) can attest to the fact that big tech only happens at big races (runoffs). And protests don't always go the way they should (Daytona). 

 No doubt, we have many good volunteers such as yourself, it is a shame to see many people get dumped on here because they are working in the class and also competing fiercly to win races in arguably the toughest class in racing.

 

At Mid ohio within the SCCA we have tired to help our cheif of tech with what areas need attention he has always listened and responded to what we have wanted and needed. 

 

All of the ideas you list out are excellent but it takes man power to come up with all the pictures and step by step instruction for dumbies like me.  pictures work best for me but even then i have to know what im looking at, and i probably know more then 3/4 of our field, sorry if that offends anyone and in no way am i saying i know diddly squat. 

[FTodaro]

Ken, 

 

SInce you have one of the heads in question, please take photos of the head and stop the rampant speculation as to what was done that is illegal.  

You are the only one that claims to have the evidence in your possession. 

 

With the photos you should be able to annotate the areas in question.

 

I expect you will also post the name of the participant, name of the engine builder, how you came into possession of the non-compliant head, as I assume SCCA confiscated all the heads at a minimum to do show and tell with their tech team.   

 

After you are have posted pictures the real dialogue can begin.  

 

Right now we have the HANG all of the cheaters group, the its just an misinterpretation of the rules group and everywhere in between groups arguing over something they have no actual  facts about.  

If nothing more, someone needs to give us an education on this. Steve I looked at your picture but nothing was registering the gray matter in my head. I understand a plunge cut. and the blending - burring. is this primarily on the exhaust valves since the air going past the cut on the intake side is going the opposite direction?

[Juan Pineda]

Our sport can be brutal. Exceed the limits (road, car, driver, luck) and you are likely to find your car totaled against a concrete wall.

 

Consequences are a necessity in our sport. Arguably, the essence.

[davew]

Am I glad we did not bring a SM to Mazda Raceway!!!!!!!!

 

I am not an engine builder, all of my engines are purchased from one of several engine builders. When I see a piston, it is almost always a bad thing.

 

A couple things I am sure of;

 None of the engine builders involved, would have knowingly sent an illegal motor to The Runoffs.

 Since all the engines seemed to have the same issue, we have consistency amongst all the builders. This tells me we have a rules interpritation problem and/or a poorly written rule

 The Runoffs is the only time each year, that engines will get this type of inspection. The members of the SOM and COA are not experts in engine building. they are supposed to be experts in reading and     interpriting what the rule book says. Not what it was meant to say, should have said or implied.

 

There are no winners in this situation

 

I have never meet Will. He may be a parts customer, but I am not going to look him up in my accounting system. What he, and the others behind him did, took some guts. It appears to have been done properly and per the rule book. I give him/them tons of credit. My personal opinion is that he should have put himself under the same microscope for public relations aspects. But I will not consider that a problem, just a minor speed bump. But I do not think he considers himself a winner.

 

Mark Drennan will never be able to enjoy the victory he worked so hard to earn.

 

Erik Stearns will never enjoy the victory he was awarded. Erik, remember the smiles as you chased the kids around the paddock (or they chased you) and not the bitterness of the man drama.

 

Every SM engine builder, directly involved or not, will loose credibility. Some will loose financially.

 

SM as a class and all of the competitors are now branded cheaters. We all loose.

 

It is my hope that sometime in the near future, a joint release from SCCA, the protested drivers, the engine builders and the protestor. Stating what really happened along with all the whys and hows of the entire event. Until that time, we should all take a deep breathe, stop calling each other names, and relax. The sky is not falling, i's just a little rainey

 

OH YEAH, We won the Runoffs in the T-4 class with an MX5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Dave

[Randy Thieme]

MPR22 Wrote:

"I expect you will also post the name of the participant, name of the engine builder, how you came into possession of the non-compliant head, as I assume SCCA confiscated all the heads at a minimum to do show and tell with their tech team. "

 

Not sure if this was meant to be an attack on Ken, but Ken and Will et al are not the bad guys here.

 

Having said that, multiple people have requested photos and only one has show up so far.  Some of the engine builders have admitted to making an error in interpretation.  They could also be the one to post a picture from a head they still have in their possession.  So to reiterate, someone, anyone, please post photos so everyone can fully understand.  We deserve at least that if this is going to have a major impact on the rules and the future of this class.

 

Years ago I worked part time in a machine shop while in college so I'm very familiar with a simple handheld deburring tool used to break a sharp edge.  The photo mentioned above is small so it's hard to see details but it appears this went far beyond simply breaking a freshly machined edge with a deburring tool.  I currently own a head purchased from one of the builders in question.  I doubt it has the illegal work since it never made that much power and I took it off my car.  But it is a backup spare and before I spend the money to have the valves removed so I can inspect it's legality I'd like to know myself what to look for.  (Or, since I know Ken and Will perhaps I could ask either of them to look at it and tell me.)

 

As for solving the problem using sealed engines, how that happens could have a serious impact for those of us on tight budgets.  If sealed means I build the engine for 3 kilobucks, an approved shop dyno's it, it passes and then gets sealed that's acceptable.  But if sealed means spending 5-7 kilobucks plus shipping costs for a pre-sealed engine from back east I will either switch classes or switch sanctioning bodies.  Gone are the days I drove my car to the track, or someone (faster than me) could finish top 10 on a junkyard engine.  That was only 5-6 years ago.

[Greg P]

Call me crazy but why allow a plung cut in the first place? Seems like any mod to a head is not spec therefor should have never been allowed. Give a inch and people will try to take 1 1/16th! Stock head with no adjustments Done! I feel bad for the people that didn't get what they expected from their motor builder but when 20 plus cars run under the track record at the Glen major (or just about every major this year) what did they think was going on? This dont ask don't tell mentality is what feeds the problem in the first place. the best drivers are the best drivers and always will be but its a shame that a very talented driver might never have a shot by following the rules.

[Dave D.]

It seems that the main issue here is how to have clear rules that can't be exploited or creep into extreme prep. What about an old circle track technique used to keep everyone honest? Claimer Rules........
Make the engine claim limit the listed price from Mazda for that particular engine(1.6,1.8na,1.8NBmVVT) and then if someone wants the winner's engine,they post up the claim amount(maybe the price plus labor and consumables?) and they can own the winning engine. It will not matter if that guy won with a $700 takeout engine or a used shortblock with a fresh Pro head. This leaves the choice up to the competitor as to what avenue to go down with his engine program: Buy new from Mazda, buy used from salvage, buy used engine and self overhaul, or buy good used engine and have a "Pro" freshen. Just be mindful that if you are spending too much money looking for an advantage,you may be out a lot of money if someone doesn't like getting out dragged down a straight and puts the money up to buy your engine.

What are the thoughts of others on this??

Dave D.

[KW78]

Our current system creates the "tech shed legal" environment.  (And tech shed rule writing for that matter)

 

If we don't tweak the system, that will continue.  I think the tweak should be real self policing, thru an open tech period of "x" minutes where all SM competitors (even last place) can look over the top "x" amount at impound, and have civil conversations, and be able to protest or not AFTER that conversation...       (I have posted a detailed scenario before on this topic)

 

Until then, you will have 3 or so volunteers trying to keep 50 or so miatas legal at an event with about 30 minutes of active tech time. 

 

You will have people like Will that have to pony up alot of $ to get their concerns addressed.

 

You will have some unfriendly adversarial situations that hurt the class.

 

You will have no formal opportunity to build the class thru reasonable people talking about reasonable issues, with each other in a group of people that predominantly want fair racing.

 

ALSO, as long as the system (from the rules) decides that it can not decided whether an issue has significant or insignificant impact, then we are all open to the ridiculous example I posted earlier about an emptied washer bottle.    The only way I can see (at this stage of SM existence) to mitigate that is to have an open tech, all year long, that gets the competitors talking.

 

Put 45 extra minutes in per weekend to save the health of the class and avoid these mega drama situations.

 

Kyle

[Richard Hall]

Gentlemen,

 

I have been lurking on this site for over a year. I would like to thank the moderators and other posters for the great environment.

 

I would like to but in my two cents. I am the guy you are trying not to scare off.  I am building a spec Miata. My first scca race car. I have been racing 25 years now.  I started in dirt karts, moved through the dirt track classes, a year drag racing, and a few years running chump and lemons.

 

I have read lots of sets of rules. I have cheated, fudged the rules, and ran completely legal cars over the years. I don’t like the current rules in spec miata and hate that I know I will have to spend so much money to have a front running car. A front running car should not cost 30,000 in a spec entry level class.

 

I have chewed on the issue and talked to my father who has been racing much longer than I have.

 

Here are my fixes that would get me excited about racing as a new comer.

 

·         Motor claims – They work when the group is willing to pop a few big money motors. Maybe it should just be the head. Keep the price to a number that an entry level racer would find palatable.  $3,000 to $5,000?

·         If you are going to allow machine work to the head ( I am against it) then the rules must have pictures. I know there are a few engineers in the group, make a few drawings or pictures of go and no go.

·         Sealed engines are great if there are enough shops qualified to seal a motor.

 

I look forward to getting to know many of you, especially Jim who is in my back yard. I don’t do things half way. When I started autocrossing in Nashville, I ended up starting a new SCCA chapter. I don’t mind getting involved and would happily add my point of view as someone new to the class.

 

I was asked why I will keep building a car over the weekend. I thought about it long and hard. What I have seen in this thread and others has me hooked! You guys, racers and engine builders have handled this with class and that is the type of people I want to race with. 

[David L]

I don't agree with you Dave W., while I do feel bad for the drivers that were found in violation and ASKED for a legal motor.

I don't believe the builders made a mistake they are to good. Drago specifically offers motors that state " we push every tolerance to get the most HP/TQ within the rules.". 

He helps write the rules and is already talking about making this legal.

Tiley admitted to pushing this area and apologized for it and then made jokes about it.

Thats bullshit these guys did this for their own personal gain$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Have there been any Rossini engines found to be non compliant or is one of the few with integrity.  

[Bench Racer]

This was originally post number 342 on page 18. I'm eliminating most of the verbage from the original post and inserting some new verbage. My intent with my limited knowledge is to attempt to school some those that don't understand. If you don't care for the messenger you could still fill in some blanks. This picture is of OEM plunge cuts to the intake valve bowls. There is a signifant step at 3 O-clock at the bottom of the plunge cut. If one massages that step or any other portion of the plunge cut material, per the written rule .4. the head is illegal. The short turn radius is at 9 O-clock and not within our view. At the short turn radius there is (vertical to the valve stem centerline) below the valve seat a walll approx 1/8 inch long that the plunge cutter machines the same as the plunge cutter machines at 9 O-clock below the valve seat. The diameter of the plunge cutter is the approx diameter of the valve seat.  Per the rule .4. removing material from the short turn wall deems the head illegal. At this point everyone should say to themselves, and as Jim Drago did, how can one plunge cut under normal head building procedures/equipment without removing material from the short turn radius. Did anyone bring this up to the tech steward, anyone else or the COA? If they observed this and or are aware of this maybe the cure for the short turn radius rule is reworked and becomes, as long as the OEM plunge cut removes material from the short tern radius, material may be removed from this approx 1/8 inch wall to the rule maximum diameter allowed. Hence in my original alternate post solution presented was to machine off center of the valve stem center torwards 9 o-clock at a diameter smaller that the maximum allowed machine the plunge cut. Included are two potential solutions to improve the rule. If someting is not understood, please ask.You know the ol saying, one can only lead a horse to water, one can not force the horse to drink.

 

If I missed the boat with this explanation please respond with a correction. 

Thank you for reading.

David Dewhurst

 

 

This post has zero intent to find fault with anyone, purely technical. I am not an engine builder.

 

As far as metal shaping or removal after the plunge cut, from my minimal eyeball viewing OEM dose not shape or remove metal after their plunge cut. If OEM does something maybe Mazda should let us know what the OEM process is.  

 

David Dewhurst  

 

[Rob Burgoon]

This thread is worthless without real pics.  So far all of the pics haven't reflected what got tossed out of tech.  Jim Drago, do you have a head on the shelf with similar throat work you could take photos of?  Shoot the short turn radius.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Gentlemen,

 

I have been lurking on this site for over a year. I would like to thank the moderators and other posters for the great environment.

 

I would like to but in my two cents. I am the guy you are trying not to scare off.  I am building a spec Miata. My first scca race car. I have been racing 25 years now.  I started in dirt karts, moved through the dirt track classes, a year drag racing, and a few years running chump and lemons.

 

I have read lots of sets of rules. I have cheated, fudged the rules, and ran completely legal cars over the years. I don’t like the current rules in spec miata and hate that I know I will have to spend so much money to have a front running car. A front running car should not cost 30,000 in a spec entry level class.

 

I have chewed on the issue and talked to my father who has been racing much longer than I have.

 

Here are my fixes that would get me excited about racing as a new comer.

 

·         Motor claims – They work when the group is willing to pop a few big money motors. Maybe it should just be the head. Keep the price to a number that an entry level racer would find palatable.  $3,000 to $5,000?

·         If you are going to allow machine work to the head ( I am against it) then the rules must have pictures. I know there are a few engineers in the group, make a few drawings or pictures of go and no go.

·         Sealed engines are great if there are enough shops qualified to seal a motor.

 

I look forward to getting to know many of you, especially Jim who is in my back yard. I don’t do things half way. When I started autocrossing in Nashville, I ended up starting a new SCCA chapter. I don’t mind getting involved and would happily add my point of view as someone new to the class.

 

I was asked why I will keep building a car over the weekend. I thought about it long and hard. What I have seen in this thread and others has me hooked! You guys, racers and engine builders have handled this with class and that is the type of people I want to race with. 

 

 

Total 1000% respect for this post! wlecome to the class as we all want to race against people like you!

[pat slattery]

Who thinks the class was better when it wasn't a Runoff eligible class, or at least more fun.