79 replies to this topic

[Ron Alan]

I guess it was more of a worlock hunt. 



Not that any of this non compliance makes much of a difference unless it's a 4+ hp 

Witch/Warlock...choose your term. Either implies something that doesnt exist. Maybe a better term would be Buck hunt? They are out there but hard to find sometimes! 

 

To try and sweep any non-compliance under the rug with a HP< argument doesnt fly with most. 1-2HP in the engine building world may not translate on track(which it does really) but it is HUGE with regard to sales, customer satisfaction and repeat business!

 

Non-compliance...Advantage gain or not, regardless of size, is still non compliant. We either have rules or we dont...do i think some are ridicuolus...of course! There was a DQ in So-cal this weekend for no windshield wipers. Ok....

 

I will agree...fair or not...not all are treated the same way in the same situations. Thats life.

 

 

On a separate note...I have had my RP checked every weekend(6) this year and several times twice in the same weekend. Like Todd, I think there are so many other things that can be easily looked at. Granted, I appreciate that except for 1 event these are all NASA/SCCA regionals.

On the things that were mentioned being looked at at RA...what was the item with regard to the ecu? Was it looking for something that would tell the ecu the motor is nice and cool or never going over a certain temp?

[Jamz14]

Frank, then I think you and I are on the same page. I do suggest that unintended consequences should primarily fall on those that are winning and affording to win. Not those that are in the mid pack and back where we are doing everything we can to afford to come run with top garages. That is unless you want the car counts to drop and only have the ultra wealthy driving. Have you ever participated in a sealed engine program? In my limited experience it increases cost.

 

However, if what Todd is saying is correct in what he and Danny are thinking to do, then it isn't a sealed engine program. What they are suggesting is no different than what they do in karting and it isn't a sealed engine program. All it is is they check something, put some colored goo around the mounting bolts of whatever they checked to ensure you didn't change it after someone last checked it. Colored goo and/or a temp seal will help things being checked multiple times during the weekend but it doesn't help that much in between race weekends. I undo many things on the car in between races. I can also buy the exact same colored goo as used the last time I was at the track. I can also get seals.

 

I still haven't heard a counter argument to fewer people being checked but done more consistently and to a program that looks at a variety of things that are sometimes intrusive and sometimes not. That seems like middle ground. That seems to keep tech at the pointing end and also a check for a car somewhere else in the pack besides the pointy end.

 

I really like Todd's comments about other things being looked at besides the items du jour we are currently looking at. The ECU is a biggy if you ask me. I think it weird that we don't have a good program for that. I personally think that we should be given ECUs at the track. I know I know there are all kinds of push backs to doing that but all that I have heard are surmountable for the benefit of eliminating ECUs as an issue.

[Jim Drago]

I think some of you have the wrong idea. The engine builders wouldn't seal the motors, SCCA tech would.
 
We had the option of reassembling the motor in tech this weekend so that SCCA tech could seal it. We decided we'd rather have East Street reassemble so we don't miss anything but since East Street had already left by the time tech was cleared we weren't able to do it on the spot and get it sealed by SCCA. It isn't that big of a deal - we ship the head, it comes back reassembled a few days later by the experts so we know nothing was missed. We will still be required to remove the head next time we are asked, and hopefully the circumstances will allow us to have SCCA tech seal it at that time so we don't have to keep pulling the head.
 
I'd rather have too much tech that not enough. It is time to start looking in other places though. Suspension/subframes, flywheels, engine bottom end, hidden cage attachment points, ECU's, etc.

+1
Also considering we have had more than expected fail this year. I have no issue with heads coming off at 2-3 majors per conference per year. It is what it is, if you want tech and want to run at the front, you should expect this and frankly not complain about it IMO. Sure there may be some easier solutions out there and we should investigate them. Playing devils advocate.. Danny has used more than 1 engine a season for the last 5 years, more than 1 car per season the last three, so have many others. I don't think passing one or even two compliance checks gives you a pass. I have no issue with sealing( other than they can be defeated but I don't believe 99% that I race with would tamper with them, but you never know)if that is something we want to do as competitors, it is worth exploring. I am considering flying John in or bringing the cars up to Topeka this off season and having them sealed while there so we can be spared during the season.

[Jim Creighton]

Believe it or not, there are a number of tech inspectors who have been engine builders and who with a 1/2 day training session by John, could be qualified to measure and seal these motors. It had been my original understanding that a volunteer staff would be trained and would assume the position John now has,

 

Perhaps, this is the route SCCA needs to look at for the future of the program.

 

For a modest fee, the Division/area compliance director could go to the builders/your shop, make the necessary measurements, observe the motor closure, and seal the motor. Items checked could include the pistons, crankshaft, rods, bore, stroke, cam shaft, valves, ports, plunge cuts and whatever is restricted by SMCS. Once this is done and as long as the motor is sealed including the Runoffs, it stays together.

 

But, the motor can be protested and then, would be torn down at the protestors cost to check for compliance. The tear down bond would include the reseal fee. Bond forfeited if compliant. If non compliant, driver is fined as is original engine builder.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

 Either implies something that doesnt exist. 

 

There was much outrage after the runnoffs mostly aimed at two builders even though most were doing the same thing.  Now we have non complaince twice from one engine builder this season, and its just a simple mistake???  I was reminded by another racer today of  a story of that builder was going to quit SM all together after the first non compliance...  maybe there is remorse but we have not heard a peep from him taking any sort of responsibility here.  The guys from last years scandals came on here and publically accepted responsibility and gave their apologies...  Neither has been found non compliant this season after numerous tech checks!

 

Just pointing out the hypocracy that goes around...

 

And I have no problem accepting the twice non compliance as a mistake, but its as big of a conspiracy as the str IMO!!!!  

 

A rp is certainly a mistake amen, and doubt that will be found again this year!

 

No builder should get a free pass on non compliance so speak up the same against all, dont just pick and choose...

[Jim Drago]

Believe it or not, there are a number of tech inspectors who have been engine builders and who with a 1/2 day training session by John, could be qualified to measure and seal these motors. It had been my original understanding that a volunteer staff would be trained and would assume the position John now has,
 
Perhaps, this is the route SCCA needs to look at for the future of the program.
 
For a modest fee, the Division/area compliance director could go to the builders/your shop, make the necessary measurements, observe the motor closure, and seal the motor. Items checked could include the pistons, crankshaft, rods, bore, stroke, cam shaft, valves, ports, plunge cuts and whatever is restricted by SMCS. Once this is done and as long as the motor is sealed including the Runoffs, it stays together.
 
But, the motor can be protested and then, would be torn down at the protestors cost to check for compliance. The tear down bond would include the reseal fee. Bond forfeited if compliant. If non compliant, driver is fined as is original engine builder.

I wouldn't bother if I was pulling pistons etc. It would be easier to have him standing here as you were assembling.. I would be willing to pay for a local tech officials training if they were able to seal my engines. I would have him seal all that left here.

Also, At Runoffs seal or no seal it needs to come apart IMO. If you knew the engine wasn't coming apart if sealed it would be way to tempting to compromise the seals. No one minds pulling apart at the Runoffs

[James York]

. If non compliant, driver is fined as is original engine builder.

 

The SCCA has no authority or recourse to impose a fine on a private enterprise.  Can't even ban their participation going forward.

[FTodaro]

I wouldn't bother if I was pulling pistons etc. It would be easier to have him standing here as you were assembling.. I would be willing to pay for a local tech officials training if they were able to seal my engines. I would have him seal all that left here.

Also, At Runoffs seal or no seal it needs to come apart IMO. If you knew the engine wasn't coming apart if sealed it would be way to tempting to compromise the seals. No one minds pulling apart at the Runoffs

We are starting to consider options.

 

Jim will not like this but what about having the motor builder certify the motor seal it, still do some selective random tech, but you would not need to do the same head 3 times in the same year.

 

Agree runoffs, different deal got to bring your tools to the big show. 

[LarryKing]

Wait, are you all saying seals could work?

 

What?

[Jim Drago]

We are starting to consider options.
 
Jim will not like this but what about having the motor builder certify the motor seal it, still do some selective random tech, but you would not need to do the same head 3 times in the same year.
 
Agree runoffs, different deal got to bring your tools to the big show.

Why wouldnt Jim like this?
Every engine we have sold in 2015 has a sealed oil pan and sealed valve cover, as long as those seals are intact, it is my responsibility and we guarantee it 100%..


Denny
My engine is scca sealed.. If you like I will seal use that seal on any engine of your choosing when I refresh right before the runoffs, perhaps we can put that too bed?

[FTodaro]

Why wouldnt Jim like this?
Every engine we have sold in 2015 has a sealed oil pan and sealed valve cover, as long as those seals are intact, it is my responsibility and we guarantee it 100%..


Denny
My engine is scca sealed.. If you like I will seal use that seal on any engine of your choosing when I refresh right before the runoffs, perhaps we can put that too bed?

I have been wrong before,

 

Question, if you have seals that have serial numbers or some kind of a identifier that is hard to reproduce that you could track would that not be a pretty secure system, not totally bullet proof, but pretty good for government work? 

[Bench Racer]

If seals work for SCCA Enterprises SRF, why wouldn't they work for Spec Miata?

[MPR22]

Wait, are you all saying seals could work?

 

What?

they are saying a limited sealing program could work for those that are getting torn down on a regular basis.  They are not saying that sealing everyone makes sense or is practical.  A seal is not a bullet proof protection against cheating.  Those with the means and motive WILL thwart it and with no fear of tear down will do so.  

 

As for the little guy, does he want to have to pay to have his engine torn apart, inspected and sealed when he has no shot at winning on the Majors level because if you are going to seal you should seal EVERY SM racing.    

[MPR22]

If seals work for SCCA Enterprises SRF, why wouldn't they work for Spec Miata?

 

Bench,  Your fire breathing 1.6 would have to be de-tuned just like they do the SRF engines.  They are made to last 3 years without being touched.  My guess is the sealing program was in place at birth of the class and there are not 3000 of them that would need to be sealed.  Than number is probably high but according to those that drink the coolaid that many would come back to racing if only there cars were equal.  If you want to start Sealed Spec Miata,  i bet the class would do well, just not nearly as well as SM.    

[LarryKing]

 

If seals work for SCCA Enterprises SRF, why wouldn't they work for Spec Miata?

 

Ooo, ooo, ooo, can I answer this one?   It's because Spec Miata is not SRF and if you like SRF so much why don't you buy one and get off this forum.

 

 

As for the little guy, does he want to have to pay to have his engine torn apart, inspected and sealed when he has no shot at winning on the Majors level because if you are going to seal you should seal EVERY SM racing. 

 

So, little guy me entered the Majors at MIS. If they do random tear-downs (like they said they might) it's possible that I could get torn-down even though the only way I will win is if everyone in front of me crashes or blows-up. If I could get my engined sealed once by an SCCA authorized center I would do it to avoid tech shed teardowns.

 

 

Those with the means and motive WILL thwart it and with no fear of tear down will do so. 

 

Would you?   Why? Why not?

[Clark18]

Regarding SM compliance--in a couple instances it appears SM cars have double-dipped in T4 as opposed to the normal STL.  Is a full-built SM legal in T4?  I thought not since SM seems to allow more engine mods than T rules, as well as adjustable fuel pressure regulators and such not allowed in T.

[Tyler Kicera]

you think a seal on an SRF engine ever stopped anyone from tinkering?  We were around the SRF community from mid 90's through the mid 00's.  I can tell you, it didn't. 

 

Want a "sealed" engine?...go race SRF.  Want accusations of non-compliance and cheating to escalate in SM beyond where it's at today?...put a seal on it. 

 

No one will ever be satisfied, especially at this point in the development of the class.  It's my opinion a little seal will only convince people more strongly that if they get beat, the guy out front must have tampered with the engine.  People will protest and we'll all be tearing things down just as we are today...so what will we have changed? 

[Bench Racer]

Ooo, ooo, ooo, can I answer this one?   It's because Spec Miata is not SRF and if you like SRF so much why don't you buy one and get off this forum.

 

 Please stop reading posts by Bench Racer, then you panties wouldn't get all wound up.

 

 

[Bench Racer]

you think a seal on an SRF engine ever stopped anyone from tinkering?  We were around the SRF community from mid 90's through the mid 00's.  I can tell you, it didn't. 

Are you saying that their today seal process does not work?

[Tom Sager]

Are you saying that their today seal process does not work?

There are some legendary stories about SRF seal-gate including one where a crew was sent to Topeka and spent a few nights in a hotel nearby in order to pick discarded seal parts from the SCCA dumpster after hours.