79 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

Ooo, ooo, ooo, can I answer this one? It's because Spec Miata is not SRF and if you like SRF so much why don't you buy one and get off this forum.



So, little guy me entered the Majors at MIS. If they do random tear-downs (like they said they might) it's possible that I could get torn-down even though the only way I will win is if everyone in front of me crashes or blows-up. If I could get my engined sealed once by an SCCA authorized center I would do it to avoid tech shed teardowns.

I would assume they would not keep you from doing so if there was such a service.

Would you? Why? Why not?

I would not. I race to challenge myself and others to a completion of driving skills. I don't race to prove I can outsmart a system. I have to do that in my day job.

[Todd Lamb]

I would not. I race to challenge myself and others to a completion of driving skills. I don't race to prove I can outsmart a system.

This.

[FTodaro]

First off a seal on a motor would never stop a driver from filing a protest, and a seal on a motor would never stop tech from pulling any part they want to see.

 

What a seal could do, if the tech folks believe the driver, the team and the reputation of the motor builder are important to those involved, may elect not to pull the head on that car for example, if they just pulled that head the week before.

 

The flaw in the argument that a sealing program will give the cheaters a license to cheat, overlooks the fact that tech can decide to tech anything at any time podium or mid pack.

 

Maybe with the advancement in technology there is a better method we could explore.

 

we could also significantly penalize someone who gets caught intentionally defeating a seal, Like a one year suspension or something more significant that a DQ.

[Jim Drago]

Are you saying that their today seal process does not work?

If your definition of work means that 90-95% don't touch seals, than yes they work.. If "working" means they have not been compromised and resealed, than no they do not work...
As I have said time and time again, they keep honest people honest.

SRF isn't the only sealed class with these issues either.

[LarryKing]

 

we could also significantly penalize someone who gets caught intentionally defeating a seal, Like a one year suspension or something more significant that a DQ.

 

And this.

 

 

If your definition of work means that 90-95% don't touch seals, then yes they work

 

Good enough for me. For the 5-10% that cheat, protest them (most front-runners can tell when a car has an exceptional advantage), if non-compliant and found to have tampered seals, then boot them out of competition for one year, better still, make it two years.

[Parity]

Has anyone discussed electronic RFID style seals? A little more investment up front but much harder to compromise without sophisticated electronic equipment.

[FTodaro]

Has anyone discussed electronic RFID style seals? A little more investment up front but much harder to compromise without sophisticated electronic equipment.

No but if you have any info to post, post it up.

[Jim Drago]

Has anyone discussed electronic RFID style seals? A little more investment up front but much harder to compromise without sophisticated electronic equipment.

Are these the ones on MX5 cup cars?

[wheel]

The SCCA is discussing going to electronic log books for all cars.  This would include a data base for annual inspection, race entry, etc.  They will have to gear up with the hardware to be able to read this information at the race track.  I don't see why that couldn't include a RFID tech seal, too.  A What Do You Think just went out about adding Race Data Analyst as a new Specialty license.  If that happens, this could be included in the duties of a worker who signs up to work a race as a RDA.  As of now, this is all just in the discussion stage.

 

wheel

[mhiggins10]

And this.

 

 

Good enough for me. For the 5-10% that cheat, protest them (most front-runners can tell when a car has an exceptional advantage), if non-compliant and found to have tampered seals, then boot them out of competition for one year, better still, make it two years.

I was about to post this- the penalties need to be so harsh that nobody considers messing with them.  The only caveat would be scenarios like the one that started the thread- a true, honest, OBVIOUS mistake.  Perhaps a less stiff penalty could be applied in those cases.

[Jim Drago]

I was about to post this- the penalties need to be so harsh that nobody considers messing with them.  The only caveat would be scenarios like the one that started the thread- a true, honest, OBVIOUS mistake.  Perhaps a less stiff penalty could be applied in those cases.

I disagree. If we had a dollar for every honest, I bought it like that mistake... Yet to hear anyone in tech say , dam you caught me, I hogged this plate out myself. It is unfortunate when stuff like that happens.. but if the penalties for such infractions were harsh, people would check their car much closer. ( not insinuating the plate in question was/was not a mistake BTW)

Example: If there were a 1 year mandatory suspension for any restrictor plate tampering(there should be). I can assure you this plate in question and everyone elses would not be touched. I know I would go personally check all of ours and I know ours are as delivered.


As a friend in Florida says often.. You want to eliminate drunk driving? Change the penalty to roadside execution. Problem solved!

[38bfast]

+1. I am with Jim on this one.

[Bench Racer]

Gee, I know a guy who posted a year or so ago referencing having the same STIFF PENALITIES as the other spec class and many laughed it off.  I guess it's not the message, it's the messenger that's the issue.   

[38bfast]

trackside execution sounds fair. 

[Jim Drago]

Gee, I know a guy who posted a year or so ago referencing having the same STIFF PENALITIES as the other spec class and many laughed it off.  I guess it's not the message, it's the messenger that's the issue. 

I was not one who laughed it off, I agreed.. I know because it doesn't happen often and when it does I have to really stop and think about it just to be sure

[Joe Benton]

Well as long as we are discussing plates and parity, I would like to propose that drivers older than 65 be allowed by rule to increase the size of the hole by 1 mm for each year beyond their 65th year.

Sort of a happy birthday geezers provision. Welcome to sm social security.

[Parity]

Well as long as we are discussing plates and parity, I would like to propose that drivers older than 65 be allowed by rule to increase the size of the hole by 1 mm for each year beyond their 65th year.

Sort of a happy birthday geezers provision. Welcome to sm social security.

 

Printing my birth certificate now. Man, I remember when Lincoln was shot.

[KW78]

There are some legendary stories about SRF seal-gate including one where a crew was sent to Topeka and spent a few nights in a hotel nearby in order to pick discarded seal parts from the SCCA dumpster after hours.  

 

No amount of rule writing from the sanctioning body will correct this.  The only way to combat this is to make it not worth doing.  No prize money in SCCA is a big plus on this topic (vs even a few hundred dollar payout in local circle track, for example).

 

The SCCA is discussing going to electronic log books for all cars.  This would include a data base for annual inspection, race entry, etc.  They will have to gear up with the hardware to be able to read this information at the race track.  I don't see why that couldn't include a RFID tech seal, too.  A What Do You Think just went out about adding Race Data Analyst as a new Specialty license.  If that happens, this could be included in the duties of a worker who signs up to work a race as a RDA.  As of now, this is all just in the discussion stage.

 

wheel

 

I think this is a really bad idea.  Life is getting busier and busier, and we need to make all these activities simpler and simpler.  The notion of club racing trying to be a nascar style thorough tech is simply a pipe dream, until there is serious money, staff, and vision, and monetary reward in our sport. 

 

Our tech and it's relatively small group of volunteers cannot be pitted against the 1000+ racers that are honestly and effectively pushing every rule plausible to push.  This is expected, I feel.  No one wants an under prepared car, and the rulebook has some limit defined to every single rule written.

 

The only ruleset here that no one has ever exceeded is physics.  That is where effective rules are based. 

 

F1 and WEC have an effective way to monitor real time fuel usage, both overall and instantaneously.  They have limited the amount of energy introduced into the drivetrain, and let the manufactures invent every control system and power unit imaginable to use the energy allowed.  This is letting physics be the limit, and at the end of extreme races, racing is close (because they have done a good job)

 

Obviously, I don't advocate this for Spec Miata.  I advocate using physics coupled with the rules and parts collection we have now, to narrow the envelope from 10% to 1%.  In the power department, club racing should be efforting this.

 

When this class was introduced, flat plate restrictors were a good starting place.  Technology has gotten better and cheaper since then, and the physics behind controlling the air we use has gotten stellar.  It isn't practical to control the chemical energy we use, but it is practical to control the oxygen we put with it. 

 

Do this more correctly than we do now, and everything talked about on the site (motor wise) is watered down by 10x!   Oh and tech (notor wise) becomes cheaper, easier, and extends to the local level.

 

   ?????????????

 

Kyle

[Steve Scheifler]

Agreed.

Now, the formula?

[Jim Creighton]

Wow, post race tech will include executions. I believe I may be able to recruit some new tech workers. Can we water board them first? Can we disassemble the non compliant car and have a silent auction? Non compliant parts cost double.

 

And don't worry about any of this not being in the GCR. It gets updated once a month now.

 

And as far as a 1% advantage car goes, who wants to get in line first to buy this 1% advantage car? At Road Atlanta, a lap is about 103 seconds so that's a little better than a second per lap advantage. Bring your sleeping bags.