46 replies to this topic

[Tom Sager]

All this simply reminds me that SCCA has far too may classes.

[Mike Collins]

All this simply reminds me that SCCA has far too may classes.

Agreed, for those that want the runoffs to be more prestigious. Limit the number of classes racing to those that require competition to gain access to the events. When 16 of the 25 classes require virtually nothing other than carefully selecting 4 events how is that prestigious? We should have maybe 10 National Championship classes. We can have more National Classes, just not National Championship Classes.

[dmathias]

+1

[fishguyaz]

Agreed, for those that want the runoffs to be more prestigious. Limit the number of classes racing to those that require competition to gain access to the events. When 16 of the 25 classes require virtually nothing other than carefully selecting 4 events how is that prestigious? We should have maybe 10 National Championship classes. We can have more National Classes, just not National Championship Classes.

Mike,
I would say that its all classes( SM included), not just 16.
I did not carefully select my 4 events. I simply started and finished 4 races ( 2 races, one weekend, in division, and 2 races, one weekend out of division).
Honestly, I would rate my performance as a
"C" = Average. i was mid pack in each race; and I have somehow qualified to attend the runoffs with this effort.
my first post implied that this is too easy to qualify, and now that i have confirmed i have in fact met the requirements, I stand by that statement.
I saw the bonus points earlier that i recieved( 20 points, were given for finishing ahead of a certain amount of cars). its the bonus points make it too easy to qualify.
BTW, my 20 bonus points, as i understand it, were earned by finishing ahead of other cars, not for finishing in a top 10 spot.
as far as i am concerned, this season i really have 4 national points; those came from finishing in the top ten of the field.

one day i would like to go to the runoffs and probobly will. just not when i feel like my accomplishments that allowed me to have the opportunity are a bit of a farce(only 4 events all with mid pack results).

winning the runoffs will always be prestigous, but the invite to the event should also have some amount of prestige as well.
as it is, there is really none.
just my .02
Josh

[Mike Collins]

Josh you either raced in a soft race or a soft division??? I have a customer who has raced in 7 Nationals and is still 1 point short. We attend SM races 40 or 50 cars is normal. You only get points for a top 9 finish. So 9th, 1 point plus up to a maximum of 10 points for each car you beat. The 10th place finisher gets 0. In the North East or South East, getting into the runoffs is not a given in SM and that may be the problem with the system. Some divisions its a free pass in others its near impossible.

[Jim Drago]

Josh
In your opinion, why should the invite be prestigious? Not saying your wrong? Just curious.

My opinion of the Runoffs is contrary to many others. Winning the runoffs has been a goal for me since I started racing, it has only been realistic these last three seasons. So I place a lot of importance on the Runoffs, so much so that I really only care about two races all year at this point, the Sprints and the Runoffs. Sure, I try to win every weekend, but I make every effort to be on top of my game at those two races, both me and the car. Where my opinion changes is that, this is a club. I don't think you tarnish the prestige of those two events by inviting more people at all. It is certainly no easier to win.

Very few drivers go to the convention, mostly volunteers and staff. I would like the Runoffs to be more of a week long party atmosphere with a big race at the end. Where many friends that see each other in only very short hectic weekends get some time to enjoys each others company etc. There is a lot of down time at the Runoffs, usually not nearly as hectic as a normal race weekend. That's is why I proposed last years qualifying procedure.

Jim

[wheel]

I agree 100% with Drago, and that alone is a scary thought. He and I both fought to keep last year's qualification system. My first Runoffs, 1998 at MidO, was one of my best experiences in racing. I qualified 27th and finished 14th, of 42 cars. Our region had a stew party for everyone, the welcoming party was great, the Prod party was great, the margaritas were great. I got to race with the best racers in the country and even beat a couple of them. Did I have even a remote chance of becoming the national champion? No way. I actually stack that race up with my podium finish nine years later at the 2007 event. Through the years I got better, the car got better, but the Runoffs experience was always the real reason to go. If you qualify and don't go, you are really missing something special. If you are an SM or SRF driver who went last year, but are prevented from going this year, shame on us.
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[dstevens]

Josh don't be down on yourself. You made it. Congrats. This is club racing and while most folks see it for what it is, racers with more money than sense and running for fun, there are a few that take the prestige thing entirely too far. I've seen it in all forms of motorsport. In my book the two most important things are a) are you safe? b ) do you have fun? If so, awesome. It's not Playboy Cup, or Grand Am it a way for folks to have fun being an official, racer or mechanic. Of the national level events I've done in even when I blew up or crashed out, I still have fond memories of the people I met and raced with. If you can afford it you should go.

[Jim Drago]

If so, awesome. It's not Playboy Cup, or Grand Am

Thank god for that.. Have you seen some of the driving over there

[fishguyaz]

Josh
In your opinion, why should the invite be prestigious? Not saying your wrong? Just curious.

Jim, good question.
truthfully, i didnt even want to get invovled in this discussion. i was just shocked that my racing results (which have been minimal in particpiation, and very average for results), as documented previously were "good enough" to qualify for the championship race.
to me if the race is for the title of national champion, then those who are there should have accomplished something to recieve the invite = prestige.

Dsteven, I am not down on myself, quite the contrary. i think i have done well. i have only done 2 national race weekends ever in my SM, and was pleased with my results given my current set up ability/knowledge with the car.

Mike Collins wondered about the events attended, asking if the events i was at had weak fields. Thats not the case, drago was at the texas world speedway event in march, and can verify that it was a pretty deep feild.

I think i have done well, its just my opinion my results ( or someone with my results this season) should not have earned a place in the national championship race IMO.

I guess what i am realizing since getting involved in this discussion is that there does in fact need to be guys like me (currently) going to the runoffs. we are called feild fillers. we have zero chance at winning the event, unless something really horrible happens at the front. I guess it is how an event of this magnitutde gets paid for............car count (entry fees) .
thats OK i guess, it must be part of the equation to hold the event. i guess perhaps somehow it adds credibility to the class to have a huge field, i dont know.

As far as prestige, to me, If i told my family/freinds that i was invited to the runoffs with my racing results for the year, that should mean something.
i would expect those people who i told to think," wow, Josh accomplished a lot this year and had a great racing season. he was granted an invitation to compete in the championship race".
sounds really great...............until i tell them what i needed to do to make the big show.
what i am saying is that what i ( or soemone like me)did this season does not qualify them to attend the national championship event.

its sort of like telling people you were on the championship football team in school; people are impressed, as long as you leave out the part that you were in fact the water boy on the team, not a "player".

I really dont think that completing 2 national race weekends, and having had finishes that were at the 50 percentile level makes me a "player".

when i tell my brother in law, who IS a racer, "i qualified to attend the runoffs this year" i would like him to think "wow, nice work, thats a big deal to do that"...........as it is now this year; its not, because its just too easy, and NOT worth even mentioning to him, unless i do so with my eye rolling up to the side.

what did I( or a guy like myself this season) do/accomplish that allows me something that i thought would be a privelege.

this link below may illistrate things better
http://www.scca-sopa...-natpoints.html



make sense?

[dmathias]

I honestly don't know why anyone who has zero chance of winning the Runoffs, or even getting a top 10 (includes me), would want to spend the time, effort and money just to be an also ran.

[Jim Drago]

Good post Josh, makes a lot of sense. I think it still boils down to what the true definition of the event is, to that I dont have a concrete answer. Certainly it means different things to different people.

Denny
How many guys show up to races every weekend with no chance of winning? I agree, personally, if I had no shot of running pretty well, I would likely go once to experience it. In other classes outside SRF and SM, that is the ONLY real race they run all year. They don't have the advantage we have of nice fields week in and week out with good races etc. So in other classes, I see why it is such an event. It is the one time a year they get to experience what we do at almost every weekend.
Jim

[AJ Roderick]

If you love racing, and have fun doing it, it should be worth the money you spend to go to a prestigious event like the run-offs. Now I realize we are spending a lot of money doing this, but I am still spending less per year racing in SM than I would spend per year racing karts. So yes, I would spend that money to go to the event even though I know I am no where near the top cars with experience/skill/car setups

[wheel]

As with all of this stuff, it is all a matter of personal taste. I can't see why anyone would spend tons of money to sit on a boat drowning worms for 8-hours a day, but I certainly respect their passion. (Although I have done just that on many occasions as a youth). The difference here is that this season a lot of drivers, who would like to go to the Runoffs for their own reasons, are not able to do that.
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[davew]

Spec Miata and SRF are different from the rest of the classes in SCCA. In most divisions, there are not 10 cars in a class. Therefore finishing the 4 races gets you an invite. Even the back of the pack guys are qualified.

In our class with 30+ car fields being commonplace. A lot of good drivers never score points. Finishing 11th may not sound great, but in many cases you finished ahead of 30 other drivers. So getting that single point is a real accomplishment in most races. Finishing mid-pack in a prod class will usually put you on the podium!!!!

Josh, don't put yourself down. What you did was finish in front of a lot of other drivers. Take that as the accomplishment that it is. If you worked the system, by looking for low turn out races, so you could easily gather the points, I may feel differently. But you went to the races you want, finsihed well and are now qualified for the Runoffs. What is wrong with that?

I professional sports, 25-50 % of the teams make the playoffs. In SM about 40% are eligable for the runoffs. Sounds pretty fair to me.

Many drivers have been going to the Runoffs for 20 years, never with a chance of winning. They keep going back to be part of the social event that is SCCA. Just because you are not dating the head cheerleader, does not mean you should not go to the prom.

Dave

[William Keeling]

The biggest issue with the runoffs is the overly looooong schedule

[suck fumes]

Agreed! A week is a little much. I wish there were no practice days and only qualifying days/races. Might make it a lot more interesting.

By the way, do you get any contingency money for being at the top of that list for points overall?

[wheel]

A friend who was notorious for always being late to the race track, showed up at the Runoffs. He got there about an hour before his group's last qualifying session on Thursday. He qualified and raced on Friday, loaded up and went home. He, basically, spent about 28 hours at Mid Ohio. So, this year you could show up on Thursday at noon. You then run the final Q session, at 3:30 that afternoon, race on Saturday morning, at 10:30 and be home Sat. night. You could even watch some races on Friday and make the Thursday and Friday night parties. Perfect 3-day event.
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[Tom Sager]

I honestly don't know why anyone who has zero chance of winning the Runoffs, or even getting a top 10 (includes me), would want to spend the time, effort and money just to be an also ran.

With all the carnage, everyone has a shot at the top ten or an equal shot at a DNF.

[wheel]

A new racing memo states that the RA1 will be the spec tire for the Runoffs, for SM. Although the 888 and the RA1 will both be legal for the remaining National races, the RA1 will be the only tire legal for the Runoffs.

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