603 replies to this topic

[Den]

I like what JimThill said.

Den

[dstevens]

So leave the blower and heater and add a duct. Or heaven forbid, anti-fog.

Rain-X is my friend...

[dstevens]

Let the average Joes get discouraged and quit and you'll have prod car-sized fields.

That's not what is happening. All other forms of amateur motorsport have some sort of tech. I don't think anyone is advocating massive tear down at every race but if tech is weight, patches and decals, that's a third tech and two thirds minutiae. Not to be pejorative but tech is part of racing and if the racer can't hang with a bit of tech, perhaps solo, DE or Lemons is a better fit. I'm not saying drop a crank at every regional but at least pop the hood and have a look. If the little dirt track in Pahrump or the track in Blythe can manage effective tech, I don't think it's too big a stretch for the self proclaimed leader of club racing to at least have a minimal compliance standard enforced.

[Danny Steyn]

The "lie detector" is a great idea, "IF" it's reliable, and "IF" it's possible. My own region is totally strapped for both cash and volunteers, so any program would have to run by the SM group, and paid for from Day One by the SM group. How do we finance it? Is the group willing to pony up the volunteer time to run it? And if we do, would the results be accepted by the others in the group?

Jim - in cities there are racers/tuners with portable dynos. Some are the large diameter wheel Dynojets that the guys bring to Road America, some are the smaller wheel portable dyno's like the ones Rossini and others use. They can be encouraged to bring their dynos to the track to make $$$$.

At Road America, during the test and qualifying days, many SM drivers had the cars on the dyno tuning, paying for their time. Dyno operators charge between $75 - $150 per hour. Some guys rented the dyno for several hours over the week. But dyno operators can easily put 6 - 10 cars an hour through the same dyno if they are only doing 3 or so pulls, just enough to get a fair reading.

So the SM class could rent the dyno for an hour as part of SM tech and put the top 5 plus a few random mid field drivers on the dyno afer a session. If all good, move on, if something smells, pursue further.

Way faster than tech. No need to train tech volunteers on the intracacies of 1.6, 1.8, 99 and 01 VVT engines and what to look for. Do a pull - pass or fail.

Yes some will find ways to game the test. Cheaters always will, just like slimy virus programmers - they find an exploit, develop a bug and unleash it on the unsuspecting publc. Microsoft, Apple and the security community then figure out how to close the exploit. Continuing cycle - cheaters and rule makers, hackers and security, never going to change.

But what I like about the dyno approach is that on the surface it still seems to be simpler than the current situation - yeah I know I am ill informed and you can all now tell me why it wont work.

I think it would be very helpful if Glenn Murphy and Mike Collins can comment on how the dyno was used at the NASA nationals, and if they think it was a useful tool

[Jim Drago]

But dyno operators can easily put 6 - 10 cars an hour through the same dyno if they are only doing 3 or so pulls, just enough to get a fair reading.

That's it, I am firing my guys on Monday! Danny's operator is at least 2-3x faster than we could ever do it! Be hard to get more than 3-4 an hour 3 max if you want remotely accurate readings..
Jim

[High Chair]

I have a portable Dynojet and will be more than happy to give it a try. Just come up with a few dollars and I will be more than happy to bring it anywhere you wish; certainly the SE races. Mike, Tom, Rossini, or anybody else is free to run it. Just generate enough revenue to bring it to and from the track and a little for the wear and tear. As Danny said there will always be those that will want to defeat it but given a little pre-dyno tech and you could get close. Let me know

[High Chair]

That's it, I am firing my guys on Monday! Danny's operator is at least 2-3x as fast as we could do it! Be hard to get more than 3-4 an hour IMO, 3 max if you want remotely accurate readings, that is with me checking nothing at all.
Jim

Drago is correct at least as far as my dyno goes. 3 or 4 is about all you can get and have comparable results. Still 3 is better than 0

[Danny Steyn]

Jim

Yup - maybe I am optimistic on how long it takes - I just remember how quickly they ran us through the dyno at Road America in 2010 when they were checking for the ECU timing cheat - in, 3 pulls and out in under 10 minutes - yes I know we were looking for something else, but I havea feeling that in the first 2 pulls you will know if you need to go any further.

[Danny Steyn]

Jamie

Rossini and yourself (and possibly others) have portable dynos here in the SE. Why dont we give it a shot here in the SE. Figure out what you would want to make it sensible for you to bring it to an event that you are attending. Then we can see if it makes sense.

Charge racers for dyno tuning time on test day and the time prior to qualifying and the race, and then the SM field pays you to dyno check our top 5 cars plus a few random mid field cars.

Quick Lie Detector. If we see something we decide how to proceed.

Personally I would rather you guys get our $$$ for compliance (which we all seem to agree we need), especially if the SM tech compliance fee is not going to produce the results we want - i.e expose the cheaters

[JBlaisdell]

Well...now that everyone is starting to get all warm and fuzzy about trying dynos...

Let me share a an interesting story that was relayed to me this last week...

Mike Rossini was at VIR last weekend , he was testing/trial run using his dyno for tech (like we have all been discussing).
He explained to me that the test went smoothly and the front runners where within 1/2 hp of each other...I'll leave the details for Mike to explain, if your interested, call him.
As a side note...Mike said the most exciting thing that happen over the weekend, had nothing to do with tech/compliance!!!

Mike noticed a slow back marker car that was struggling to keep up with the group. He stopped at the guys paddock and offered his dyno services.The guy was visably frustrated and not having a very good time. The guy balked at spending $100 for dyno work (like most low buck, back markers would). Mike finally convinced the guy that he could probably help him. Well, the poor guys car was putting out 80hp!!! After a couple runs, they got the car to 109hp. Wow, 29hp for $100...
Well, Mr. back marker proceeded to finish mid-pack in the next race. Obviously he was thrilled...brought his wife over to meet Mike.
Anyway...In the spirit of this thread "The future of SM and how we fix/build the class"...the at the track dyno most likely saved another SM racer from leaving our ranks (for golf or shuffleboard).
I'm sure most all, on this thread, can think of a handful of Mr. back markers, that have never seen a dyno. Imagine the immediate results/success that can be created by having a tool like this available to all...let's keep everyone(front to back) excited and interested in racing SM.

[john mueller]

Mueller where are you? Where is the national data bank of data? top secret I am sure!

I'm here, just choosing to listen... I know where the data goes and your and all the data has a purpose. It was used to corroborate the 2011 rules and as the season moved of verify that we were still good.

[john mueller]

Glenn what does that mean exactly, I know at the Nasa champs there was some non compliance that was allowed to cure it, and start at the back?

Done means DQ for that session/qual/race, hence the start in the back for the next session.

[Jim Drago]

Jim

Yup - maybe I am optimistic on how long it takes - I just remember how quickly they ran us through the dyno at Road America in 2010 when they were checking for the ECU timing cheat - in, 3 pulls and out in under 10 minutes - yes I know we were looking for something else, but I havea feeling that in the first 2 pulls you will know if you need to go any further.

I was just busting your chops, but your memory is a little optimistic IMO, I was one of the first and remember being there a long time. Refresh my memory, did the dyno any good there? Did we find anything? There was a pretty good disparity in HP numbers, did anyone protest?
How much good did this dyno testing do? How many felt the numbers were inaccurate from car to car?


A few things to consider before we start bringing dynos to the track...
1)There is no HP cap in SM, the chance of ever being a HP cap in SM is .01% or less, probably less.
2)No one would ever be Dq'ed from an SCCA National event for a HP #on a dyno. they would only be DQ'ed for breaking a rule.
3) If we all somehow magically agreed this was the best method, which we won't.... It would be a rules change ( a major one). That rules change if we passed it tomorrow would not go into effect until Jan1, 2013.


These are all facts that would need to be worked around. IMO, you are wasting time, you should be working on rules and enforcement of the rules because the dyno "solution" is not going to happen. But get back to the discussion.

[Andrew Charbonneau]

holly crist danny you have alot to say about motors you made rossini bring one to you and changed tree times your power plant at road america .guys like you make the sport an expence. god forbid if you gave fowler a motor he would kick your ass which he did until you took it away from him. I still say apartide tec guys will find the cheaters let them do there job and rules peps will do there job . I find it weird that three years running full tear down on the 67 machine still fast bye the way danny you had more power hummm people you cry wolf must be a wolf

[Mike Lliteras]

So if we had a hp cap would it be on a Mustang, DynoJet, Land & Sea or Dynocom dyno. They seem to read a little different.


The more cars in front of me that get DQ'd the less I have to out drive.

[Ron Alan]

AC...don't you have your own corner to stay in??


Was catching up on the thread just about ready to question Danny and I read Jim's post...exactly what I was thinking. And though Jim has way more insight in his pinky on dyno's than I ever will, you can't pick an arbitrary HP # and then expect all dyno's to read the same Someone earlier(Mike C?)mentioned a 10hp difference between his home dyno and the track dyno

How many have had scale differences between your shops and the tech scales on race day?? Our last event we did our usual routine of putting a gallon of gas in the car, my driver and his gear, and headed to the tech scales. We were 20lbs heavier than 3 weeks earlier on the same scales!! Checked twice more before the first race...same result...took 15lbs out of the car! Be interesting to see what we are next weekend! Point being, equipment can vary, and the use of that equipment can vary(human factor).

See above post that went up while I was typing

[Bench Racer]

Mike, ya missed one, Dynopac. Happens to be one loacally owned by Meller/Loshak prod racer/DSR racer.

Ron, point being with a Dyno of whatever type at the track. It should show a similar range of numbers as were posted within the thread from someplace on the left coast. The 121 hp was a ringer, it stunk, it was over the accecptable. Yes I understand the guy got the 121 after sealing but the number still makes the point. Legal or illegal he beat the system but the RED flag was there. Tear down or whatever.

Yes, I understand, anyone that wakes up during the night & is thinking about this site needs to get a life.

[Rob Burgoon]

Well...now that everyone is starting to get all warm and fuzzy about trying dynos...

Let me share a an interesting story that was relayed to me this last week...

Mike Rossini was at VIR last weekend , he was testing/trial run using his dyno for tech (like we have all been discussing).
He explained to me that the test went smoothly and the front runners where within 1/2 hp of each other...I'll leave the details for Mike to explain, if your interested, call him.
As a side note...Mike said the most exciting thing that happen over the weekend, had nothing to do with tech/compliance!!!

Mike noticed a slow back marker car that was struggling to keep up with the group. He stopped at the guys paddock and offered his dyno services.The guy was visably frustrated and not having a very good time. The guy balked at spending $100 for dyno work (like most low buck, back markers would). Mike finally convinced the guy that he could probably help him. Well, the poor guys car was putting out 80hp!!! After a couple runs, they got the car to 109hp. Wow, 29hp for $100...
Well, Mr. back marker proceeded to finish mid-pack in the next race. Obviously he was thrilled...brought his wife over to meet Mike.
Anyway...In the spirit of this thread "The future of SM and how we fix/build the class"...the at the track dyno most likely saved another SM racer from leaving our ranks (for golf or shuffleboard).
I'm sure most all, on this thread, can think of a handful of Mr. back markers, that have never seen a dyno. Imagine the immediate results/success that can be created by having a tool like this available to all...let's keep everyone(front to back) excited and interested in racing SM.

That story is similar to mine. Was making <100hp and was too cheap to know it until NASA dyno'd me. Showing up with an engine does wonders for making passing easier.

That's part of why I like schemes that involve the dyno, you'll convince the skilled but underpowered midpackers to fix their cars and move up the field.

[Bench Racer]

SCCA GCR SMCS Spec Miata specification weights (Spec Line)

Following are four very significant points to start this weight parity post of Spec Miata spec line weights.

(Please keep in mind we are brainstorming, clean sheet of paper, bar nothing in the thought process. We may ferret the realities during the discussion process.)


Point 1.

180 pounds (right or wrong) driver weight is the normal SCCA classing weight, that's the normal weight used when classing cars within the SCCA. Support point, have any of you ever viewed a successful production car driver, open wheel driver or what have you class driver where the driver weighed between 250 & 300 pounds.

Point 2.


We all know that using weight as a parity gadget is not fair in the racing game. There is great impact on brakes, tires, suspension, overall handling and drive train.

Point 3.

Both organizations continue to use weight shifts & restrictor plates shifts in an attempt to gain spec line parity. Simplifying the parity process is a gain.

Point 4.

A power number has been used on this site for whatever reason & this power number has zero engineering value.

We have the spec line cars that started as regional cars which are the 1990 through the 1997 years with two different motors & as I understand three different ECU's.

For this car weight parity model let's use the 1990/1993 spec line car that is the majority (if anybody knew the numbers) of all 4 spec lines as the base.

Spec line weight: 2275 pounds

Caged car weight 2020 pounds (Have read on this site)

Weight difference 255 pounds

Driver weight 180 pounds

Remainder weight 75 pounds This remainder weight may be used for any legal option one cares for including driver weight.


Now let's move to the current must have car which let's call the 1999/2000 spec line. Similar weights can be calculated for the remaining two spec lines. These are proposed weight numbers required to start with the two spec lines on an even playing field. You can all figure out the meaning of even playing field, correct.

These weight numbers are inverse of the 1990/1993 spec line.

Remainder weight 75 pounds This remainder weight may be used for any legal option one cares for including driver weight.

Driver weight 180 pounds

Weight difference 255 pounds

Caged car 2100 pounds (Have read on this site)

Spec line weight 2355 pounds


Now with the 1999/2000 spec line cars on a weight parity diet the remainder of the parity can be accomplished with a restrictor plate (simplified). I say the remainder of parity may be accomplished with a restrictor plate with zero knowledge if that's a true statement.


Parity Testing:

Yes, there is a car/track/data acquisition parity test plan in the wings & currently typed.

[High Chair]

Jamie

Rossini and yourself (and possibly others) have portable dynos here in the SE. Why dont we give it a shot here in the SE. Figure out what you would want to make it sensible for you to bring it to an event that you are attending. Then we can see if it makes sense.

Charge racers for dyno tuning time on test day and the time prior to qualifying and the race, and then the SM field pays you to dyno check our top 5 cars plus a few random mid field cars.

Quick Lie Detector. If we see something we decide how to proceed.

Personally I would rather you guys get our $$$ for compliance (which we all seem to agree we need), especially if the SM tech compliance fee is not going to produce the results we want - i.e expose the cheaters

Danny,
I will be more than happy to bring it to the Florida nationals and give it a try. We could do it for less than 20 dollars per car (given a 30 car field). If others want to use it to tune their cars they would be welcome to for a small fee. $50 per hour would more than cover the costs. It seems like a win for everybody as those that may not be at the pointy end would have a chance to know what their cars make without having to bring their cars somewhere and paying a bunch of money. How the dyno would work with tech in the SE is beyond my experience but it is here if someone wishes to use it.