603 replies to this topic

[Strongbad]

Revisiting the parity question. Why can't we have different weights and plates for specific tracks to even up each model ? I am not saying that this is necessary at all tracks but on some it is very obvious. It would be really cool if I knew my car was 'technically' competitive at every track I race. Seems easier and cheaper to change some ballast and a RP rather than buying another car to be competitive.
If Jim Creighton is still reading this tread, I would like to hear him express the challenges we'd face if there were different weights and RP for certain tracks. The Pro series are able to add/remove weight at the drop of a hat. Why is Club racing stuck in the stone age with this?

Joseph

[xczach]

Engine claim rule.

The IMCA (dirt track racing) has made that work to perfection. They have very few rules on engines but yet top modified class engines are going for under $10,000 while producing over 500 hp! They just rely on the claim rule and market forces to control costs. I always felt that if the SCCA instituted a claim rule (and perhaps more sealed motor options in more classes) it would make road racing easier for an average person like myself to get into.

[Alberto]

For us power isn't the issue...pull just fine with the 1.6...until that point we hit the rev limiter(like a brake 2 seconds before we want to brake!)and the 1.6 jumps forward. For those who are screaming "just shift" we do or will...but it's a disadvantage we didn't really have before the rule change. And since everyone knows probably the most common reason for being or making passes(equal cars)is missed shifts(especially under g load...mid corner)this increases our odds of making a mistake.

It cost us $1000 to change our diff and become compliant/gear ratio equal...can we spend $100 with the guy who advertises on this forum to move our rev limiter to(equal!) the next lowest factory # in a stock ecu???

In a different thread Jim D posted the NA 1.8 rev limiter at 6900rpm. Can someone post the 1.6 and 99 rev limit #s? Jim??

Yeah, I hear Kyle bouncing off the rev limiter at a few places at the track. That 4.3 makes for some interesting gearing.

[dstevens]

The IMCA (dirt track racing) has made that work to perfection. They have very few rules on engines but yet top modified class engines are going for under $10,000 while producing over 500 hp! They just rely on the claim rule and market forces to control costs. I always felt that if the SCCA instituted a claim rule (and perhaps more sealed motor options in more classes) it would make road racing easier for an average person like myself to get into.

The IMCA clam rule was being abused so much they suspended it during the 2010 season and came back with a much more restrictive clam rule about who can claim and when. There are some guys I've run with out here that run dirt mods. They aren't so much concerned about the claim rule as they are about tech and not getting points or purse.

[JBlaisdell]

Wow...10 pages of some powerful stuff (or not)...

My conclussion:
EVERYBODY WANTS THE SAME THING...ENFORCE THE RULES!!!

But...
1) How do we decide to execute this?
2) How do we expect other people (SCCA, NASA) to uniformly enforce them.

The decision to execute the rules comes down to (2) solutions:
Man vs. Machine...Do we utilize teams of tech people or do we utilize machines (dyno/data boxes)???
Certainly no easy answer here...both sides have given excellent pro's and con's. But most seem split down the center...

The uniform enforcement question:
Ultimately, whatever we all might come to an agreement on, it won't matter, if the SCCA/NASA can't easily enforce them.
We are trying to make decsions on a process, that we then expect other people (who we have no authority over) to enforce.
We are asking them to either staff ( find 20+ Mike C.'s) or source ( 20+ competent mobile dyno's)!!!

[Caveman-kwebb99]

The uniform enforcement question:
Ultimately, whatever we all might come to an agreement on, it won't matter, if the SCCA/NASA can't easily enforce them.
We are trying to make decsions on a process, that we then expect other people (who we have no authority over) to enforce.
We are asking them to either staff ( find 20+ Mike C.'s) or source ( 20+ competent mobile dyno's)!!!

As I suggested in one of my prior posts, you dont need Mike C's (no offense Mike) what you need it to collect a compliance fee and hire a nuetral Mazda competent mechanic and have Mike C or Drago or someone that really knows the sh+t to write a tech guide. this could be done in any local NASA or SCCA region by going to the event dirrectors with what we want to do and how and just getting their blessing. This tech person should have very little, and need very little guidance from any racer, they should just follow said guide starting with qualifying sessions on through the race. John A. can then go ahead writing his guide to protesting for the racers if he wishes.

Now back to all the stupid bickering!

[Danny Steyn]

In a different thread Jim D posted the NA 1.8 rev limiter at 6900rpm. Can someone post the 1.6 and 99 rev limit #s? Jim??

I am sure that JD, Collins, DaveW, or Fowler, all who have experience will all three models will correct this if wrong

1.6NA - approx 7200RPM
1.8NA - approx 6900RPM
1.8NB - approx 6900RPM (although I have seen some that do get to 7000RPM - anything over 7000RPM on a '99 is a cheated ECU IMHO)
01 ---- ????

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I am sure that JD, Collins, DaveW, or Fowler, all who have experience will all three models will correct this if wrong

1.6NA - approx 7200RPM
1.8NA - approx 6900RPM
1.8NB - approx 6900RPM (although I have seen some that do get to 7000RPM - anything over 7000RPM on a '99 is a cheated ECU IMHO)
01 ---- ????

beleive the 01 is also 6900 real rev limit although just like the 99 it shown on the dash tach arount 7100.

[Glenn]

As I suggested in one of my prior posts, you dont need Mike C's (no offense Mike) what you need it to collect a compliance fee and hire a nuetral Mazda competent mechanic and have Mike C or Drago or someone that really knows the sh+t to write a tech guide. this could be done in any local NASA or SCCA region by going to the event dirrectors with what we want to do and how and just getting their blessing. This tech person should have very little, and need very little guidance from any racer, they should just follow said guide starting with qualifying sessions on through the race. John A. can then go ahead writing his guide to protesting for the racers if he wishes.

Now back to all the stupid bickering!

Before the NASA Runoffs, Mike and I put together a list of 20 or so things that we aere going to look at in tech. It is possible to do at Regional/National races, but again it comes down to STAFF. As experienced Miata guys we were able to expedite most inspections and not overly delay the racers. Im not sure that you could do that with "local talent". Also the NASA system when a violation is found is MUCH simpler, your found non-compliant and your DONE. If we were using the same list at an SCCA event the whole process gets much more complicated.

[Mike Lliteras]

You could probably get a local Mazda dealer to send over a couple of their mechanics just by giving some free advertising for them. Putting up a banner or tent with a couple new cars to set up. It has to be done. My son and I have already gone from trying to win, to using this for seat time and working on other racing. We could run a 130 hp 1.6 and no one would check, but Im sure the lap records in our area would be blown away if we did. I personally would rather sleep at night than have an engraved glass.

[Alex Bolanos]

Since the proper way to find an illegal car in both the SCCA and NASA is to file a protest, how about an "SM protest guide" that racers can use as a guideline to protest a competitor and the costs associated with doing so supplied to the organizations and made available to the racers every weekend? Things like cam specs are already published in the rule book, and we can get expert advice from engine builders and shops on commonly known and easy to check items, how to check them, and how much they would charge to check those things. Hell, the SCCA and NASA might already have a list from the teardowns at the championships. A lot of people don't know what to protest, so they don't want to waste money guessing. I don't think the event stewards know what to check either, so it would help them out a lot as well.

Here's a hypothetical scenario:
Racer A has a suspiciously fast car and wins the race, his competitors are frustrated. Racer B can go to the officials and request to see the "SM protest guide" (which would be present at post race impound) to determine what they think could be illegal on the car and how much it will cost for them to have it checked. If they want to continue, they file the protest and the organization takes it from there, whether it be taken care of by a tech inspector, checked by a panel of peers, or sent off to an engine builder after the weekend.

Just an idea. Still floundering about trying to think of things that are not too far fetched or will be detrimental to the class.

Great idea, I think some of this information may already be available but it certainly isn't public.

I remember being in the stewards office at the '11 Jan National at Sebring and being completely lost and confused by the process. In the end they told me to protest other drivers even though it was the starter's fault for allowing the race start... Sigh

Protesting other drivers for $50 would have just added to the cost of my already expensive $3000 lesson that I will share with you all for free: SCCA doesn't wave off starts

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Before the NASA Runoffs, Mike and I put together a list of 20 or so things that we aere going to look at in tech. It is possible to do at Regional/National races, but again it comes down to STAFF. As experienced Miata guys we were able to expedite most inspections and not overly delay the racers. Im not sure that you could do that with "local talent". Also the NASA system when a violation is found is MUCH simpler, your found non-compliant and your DONE. If we were using the same list at an SCCA event the whole process gets much more complicated.

Thanks for enlightening me! As I said when I first floated this idea it was probably a pie in the Sky.

[dmathias]

Let's not overestimate the interest of those not involve in this class. I think we are already perceived as prima donnas.

This quote, borrowed from another thread, says it best;

"Outside me, you and about 50-60 other douche bags, no one else even knows about this race [substitute 'class'] , let alone cares "

[Jim Drago]

In a different thread Jim D posted the NA 1.8 rev limiter at 6900rpm. Can someone post the 1.6 and 99 rev limit #s? Jim??

1.6 is 7200 and 99 up is 7000

[George Munson]

I guess I'll this post this idea again since no one commented earlier. Why can't we work on making the 1.6 and earlier 1.8 cars faster instead of slowing down the "99's". Horsepower and torque can be increased and controlled. By allowing this, weight and the plates could come off the "99's" which will save tire and the handling issues that hurt them late in races I still think if this is done we can the cars much more equal around the different tracks. I know the newer cars handle a bit better but I'm sure there are some cheap fixes for this as well. Bottom line is we can just continue to do the same things and the results will continue down the same path. To myself the path we are on just makes the cars farther apart just in different ways. I'm convinced the Mazda Engineers worked long and hard in developing their cars. Our current program seems to negate their efforts.

I only post this idea as a way of growing our class will gladly look at differing opinions. Bottom line is I don't want a split. I'm a wanta be "National Driver" trapped in a regional budget. When I look at all of the classes running around with 1-3 drivers per class I shutter.

Flame Away,
George Munson

[dmathias]

Y'all work this out, I'll be over at Twitter

[FTodaro]

Also the NASA system when a violation is found is MUCH simpler, your found non-compliant and your DONE.

Glenn what does that mean exactly, I know at the Nasa champs there was some non compliance that was allowed to cure it, and start at the back?

[Mike Collins]

Glenn what does that mean exactly, I know at the Nasa champs there was some non compliance that was allowed to cure it, and start at the back?

At NASA we did not need to fill out paperwork and send it to a court. A small group discussion was had by DECISION MAKERS then a penalty was handed down. Either loss of time, position or disqualification (that did not happen at this years but it did last year). Don't bother appealing it, the same people are going to meet again and tell you that you are still out of spec and either the same penalty will stand or you will get a bigger penalty for wasting more of our time!

[Glenn]

At NASA we did not need to fill out paperwork and send it to a court. A small group discussion was had by DECISION MAKERS then a penalty was handed down. Either loss of time, position or disqualification (that did not happen at this years but it did last year). Don't bother appealing it, the same people are going to meet again and tell you that you are still out of spec and either the same penalty will stand or you will get a bigger penalty for wasting more of our time!

What Mike said!

[William Keeling]

yes stop all the spec changes I am so tried of reflash my ECU