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The future of Spec Miata - Off-Season Discussion

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#61
Jim Boemler

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When I look back at SM over the years I ask what was it that created the 60+ fields every race weekend at every track (in my area). To me that's the only question we really need to ask.

Was there sealed motors? No.
Were their more rules? No.
More enforcement? No.
Better specifications (motor etc.) No.
Was SM a National class? No.
Did SM have a spec tire? No.

So what was it that brought everyone out? Well I can only speak for me and those guys around me that started when I did. It was the "race in a competitive environment with large fields for cheap with other like-minded guys who wanted the same thing."

That's no longer SM and that's why it's losing popularity, why guys are quitting and why new guys no longer want to be part of it.

My opinion is that your typical "weekend warrior" guy like me wants to run with like-minded folks. He doesn't want to show up at the track and race against guys in $40,000 professionally built cars or fleets of renters who float in, cause havoc, then float out 2 races later. They want to have friendly racing against a great bunch of guys, wrench on the cars together when they break and then have a beer afterwards.

That's EXACTLY how SM used to be. Can it be that again? Do we want it to be? Has that time come and gone and will never be that way again? I don't know. But what I do know is lots of the things that we're talking about here (enforcement, parity etc.) have precisely nothing to do with what made SM incredibly popular to begin with. Those items are only important to the small percentage of guys who race National and run high-stakes. I raced against plenty guys who were obviously running all kinds of weird and wacky parts I didn't care, we were out to have fun, not spend our weekends disassembling our damn cars so they could get DQ'd for the wrong shape heater box.

If I was the guy sitting on the iron throne with a giant staff in my hand I would point it at the SM rules and say "SM is 99+ only, Regional CM (club miata) is 90-97" The two types of cars go their own way. Stupid idea? Maybe but it would keep the high rollers out of the club ranks and keep the club guys from trying to impose their ideas on the guys who are laying it all down on National SM. They are two entirely different types of people in this class now and two very different types of car.


I think you're pissing into the wind with this, Colin, but I'm right there with you. I really MISS the days you described, and I wish they could return. Not sure if separating by model year is the right way to get there, but I wish we COULD get there. THe problem, as I see it, is that many drivers haven't grown up enough to understand what they want. They think that somehow they're the next Jason Saini, and their pro contract is just one more win away. I think many of us do want the racing you describe, but many that do still harbor dreams that just can't be reached without making it to victory lane. I don't know how to solve that.

BTW, at least in my region, we've had spec tires from the very beginning, and I think we universally have found it to be a Good Thing. We can't equalize everything, but tires are easy.

#62
JBlaisdell

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John

I have a great deal of respect for what you do for our sport, and even more so for the idealism that courses through your veins.

I dont want to shoot down your suggestion before it gains traction, but from what I have seen, the minute they are split it into National and Regional, there will be those that do the same stuff in both classes. Nothing will change

I understand your HP cap idea, and the more I think about it the more I like it. What I like about it is that you get to the "truth" immediately, without the invasive tear down trying to find what was done, in the full knowledged that the tech guys actually dont know what to look for anyway. I pu truth in quotation marks as I am sure that peopel will figure out a way to game teh system as they always do

Does this work or is it pie in the sky? Too Idealistic???

  • Set the cap limit at whatever - say 120HP.
  • Make a portable dyno available at the track to all on test day before the race, and on race days. Get on teh dyno, pay a nominal fee, make sure you are under the cap
  • After a qualifying or race session, send the top 3-5 PLUS at least 2 random mid pack runners to the dyno immediately - cannot go to pits or put the hood up.
  • Dyno guy gets in and runs your car to see what their numbers are
  • If your numbers are way over limit, lose your qualifying time or your race position.
  • Detune the car to meet the cap.
Add your ideas to this or shoot it down in flames - but try to see it from both sides - not always that easy to do - way to easy to be negative


This is EXACTLY what Mike Rossini and others of us are 110% behind!!!
This is the best new solution I have heard...if others have better idea's, PLEASE speak up!!!
Simple and inexpensive solution.
Spend as little or as much as you want on your car...$6K to $40K...doesn't matter...Hell, cheat your motor if you want, still doesn't matter...no one will care, as long as your car doesn't make more than the approved HP cap.
Let the 1.6 guy put cam's, headers or whatever, again who cares...if he can find himself cheap HP that is not above the HP cap...than let him.
I agree with Steve D....we as a group, spend far too much time discussing the wrong (negative) things.
I really would like to see SM get back to being a "drivers" class of cars...lets stop the madness of finger-pointing and rule bending discussions.

Jim Blaisdell
G$ Munson Driver Coaching Student/Client
jblaisdell65@gmail.com


#63
Steve D

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This is the best new solution I have heard...if others have better idea's, PLEASE speak up!!!
Simple and inexpensive solution.
Spend as little or as much as you want on your car...$6K to $40K...doesn't matter...Hell, cheat your motor if you want, still doesn't matter...no one will care, as long as your car doesn't make more than the approved HP cap.

Aside from the virtual impossibility of having a dyno at all the races and the added expense if they are there...

If the HP/TQ caps are single numbers and the rest of the rules are opened, the winner will be the one who drives really well and has HP/TQ curves that look like Kansas. You won't be able to read the peak number because there won't be one. :spin:

Steve DeVinney
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#64
Mike Collins

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As I have shared with most who have approached me the "the dyno is going to save the world" idea. NO CHANCE. Its easier to beat the dyno than a good tech inspector any day!
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#65
Jim Drago

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I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, respect the hell out of Mike Rossini, but the Dyno deal is not a realistic solution. The idea of going wild wild west with whatever you want as long as it passes the "dyno test" is insanity. Like Steve said, My HP and TQ line will look like Kansas as will many others, ( ironically the same guys you are trying to " get" with your dyno testing.) Same cost wars, just in an entirely different manner. That is just with the guys trying to stay within the rules. Then most with a 5th grade education could beat the dyno test at least 1 out of 3 times. If a very competent dyno operator with SM knowledge wanted to do a pretty full test on a knowledgable person who wanted to beat the dyno test , it would be a three hour dyno session and I still feel like it could be beat without much effort.

The best way to approach this is have a clearly defined rule set and more enforcement of the EXISTING rules. We all have the same rule book, read it, re read it and build to it. Someone will always be ahead, some one will always be behind. I have been in both positions in the last 18 months.

Jim
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#66
Rob Burgoon

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Another suggestion for Danny's list:

Lose the chin spoilers

Does it make the racing better? cheaper? safer?

Lose 'em.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#67
Rob Burgoon

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Jim, feel like sharing how you'd go about cheating the dyno? Besides the obvious multiple tunes.
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#68
Mike Collins

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No need for a different tune. Trick the ECU into limp mode. very easy to do.
Mike "MEATHEAD" Collins
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#69
Jim Drago

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Jim, feel like sharing how you'd go about cheating the dyno? Besides the obvious multiple tunes.


Not really Rob, does little to help this discussion along.

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NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America

#70
Johnny D

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I had mentioned a black box before.
You couldn't get a way with "now you have it", "now you don't".
Maybe you wouldn't even need to dyno.
J~
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#71
Rob Burgoon

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Not really Rob, does little to help this discussion along.


Depends on who you ask. Some people floated the post race dyno idea, you shot it down saying it's trivial, I'm interested to hear how it's so easily defeated by high school dropouts.

@Mike, DQ for limp mode or too little horsepower. Rebuttal?
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill - Survive the 25, NASA Thunderhill We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations!

#72
Ken Quartuccio

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Add the compliance fee but do tech
This is the easiest way to help the problem
This is my first season racing and I have been impounded 10 times and only once this year have they checked anything.
That was restrictor plates . We would never get a dyno program in place in the north east
We also run sm2 up here which now instead of one 40 car field we have 2 smaller ones

#73
Alberto

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Depends on who you ask. Some people floated the post race dyno idea, you shot it down saying it's trivial, I'm interested to hear how it's so easily defeated by high school dropouts.

@Mike, DQ for limp mode or too little horsepower. Rebuttal?


I'm with you on both counts.

I don't see how you can trick a post race dyno test repeatedly.

And yes definitely DQ on limp mode and too little HP. If it smells like BS, it probably is....

That would have discovered the issue with the Doug's SSM car that somehow gained HP after the initial seal. We have plenty of rules already, I say enforce them heavily and regularly.


I also fear we have self interested parties on the rules committee. Guys that own businesses that service SM and would benefit from the arms race probably shouldn't be making rules. Let the racers make the rules.
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#74
Mark McCallister

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I had mentioned a black box before.
You couldn't get a way with "now you have it", "now you don't".
Maybe you wouldn't even need to dyno.
J~


Can we talk more about this idea?

Some pro series use data/telemetry analysis to make competition adjustments.

So what if rather than investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in motor work across the class and tens of thousands in tech tools to play in the arms race of teching for in-motor cheating, what if our compliance fee bought a bunch of black boxes to randomly assign and check for illegal HP?

Spec the bracket for the black box and location for the bracket so all tech has to do is snap them in on grid and pull them out as the car rolls off.

Instead of pulling hard parts and spending hours and hours pulling motors apart and putting them back together, tech can be done at a computer in the A/C. I might even be qualified and volunteer for that. :optimist:

Well, you would still have to dyno shocks and such in tech, but eliminating the motor would be a massive savings.

Discuss....
Bona fide - A bonafide Spec Miata driver

#75
Gatoratty

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I chose SM after talking to old friends who had raced in HP, FP, and many other classes over the years. What they told me is true which is SM is the only class where you will always have someone to race no matter where you run in the field. I finally did what others have been telling me for a long time and went to the dyno and tuned the motor. Next suspension and alignment. I do not put either the time or the money into my car to be at the front, but I still have fun! I am lucky enough to race against some of the best drivers in SM here in Central Florida Region who are all willing to help a back marker like me improve. More tech sounds great until you have to provide the volunteer manpower. I was the RBC for the last Daytona race and we barely had enough people to handle basic tech, let alone checking and impounding cars. Some of the protest fees for engines are being reviewed at the BOD level to make it easier and cheaper to protest a suspect car. I can tell you from experience that people who run multiple classes will raise hell that they can't get to grid for the second class. I watched a single car catching two 99's putting on an exhibition of drafting at Daytona and yet no protests. We also need to police our class.
Paul McLester
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#76
John Costello

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First post here. I am going to running my first season in SM in 2012. I chose SM because there is great competition everywhere in the field at any given race. I can't really offer too much about changes because I really don't have enough experience in SM. I do know that it is a very appealing class from the outside because it seems to have a great philosophy and rules set. There will always be the have and have nots, but I would hate to see SM get ruined by rule changes(or lack of changes for that matter). I guess I just wanted to say from the outside SM looks awesome and that is what attracted me!

#77
FastM3

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Well we can keep passing the time by playing a little Solitaire or we can look at some way to bring the fun back and make us poor 1.6 guys not feel that we have been cheated out of an equal chance to run.

Some of you Fat Cats with the fancy dyno's should be able to come up with a real restrictor program that will slow down the 1.8's to real world equal performance. You the builders figure it out. It aint equal now.

Also the 2275 weight is a joke for 1.6's Make it 2300 for 1.6;s. 2400 (or whatever is correct) for the 94 to 98's and 2500 or 2475 (or what ever is correct) for the 99's.

Then let's have a great 2012 trying to figure out how to make the Hoosiers last.

#78
5X Racing

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John

I have a great deal of respect for what you do for our sport, and even more so for the idealism that courses through your veins.

I dont want to shoot down your suggestion before it gains traction, but from what I have seen, the minute they are split it into National and Regional, there will be those that do the same stuff in both classes. Nothing will change

I understand your HP cap idea, and the more I think about it the more I like it. What I like about it is that you get to the "truth" immediately, without the invasive tear down trying to find what was done, in the full knowledged that the tech guys actually dont know what to look for anyway. I pu truth in quotation marks as I am sure that peopel will figure out a way to game teh system as they always do

Does this work or is it pie in the sky? Too Idealistic???

  • Set the cap limit at whatever - say 120HP.
  • Make a portable dyno available at the track to all on test day before the race, and on race days. Get on teh dyno, pay a nominal fee, make sure you are under the cap
  • After a qualifying or race session, send the top 3-5 PLUS at least 2 random mid pack runners to the dyno immediately - cannot go to pits or put the hood up.
  • Dyno guy gets in and runs your car to see what their numbers are
  • If your numbers are way over limit, lose your qualifying time or your race position.
  • Detune the car to meet the cap.
Add your ideas to this or shoot it down in flames - but try to see it from both sides - not always that easy to do - way to easy to be negative


Danny,

I appreciate the kind words! I really do take a keen interest in the future of the class for several reasons, the biggest one is that it is a hell of a good time when firing on all cylinders, and the other is that I run a business that caters to Spec Miata racers, so I want to make sure this thing is around for a while!

No need to worry about shooting anything down, this is just a big brainstorming session to me and that's what happens in brainstorming sessions, ideas are supposed to get thrown around with recklessness. I am not here to prove any points or change any minds, just share some interesting thoughts on how to keep this class buzzing into the future. If my thoughts and ideas can be used, then great, if not, then I guess I have to go with whatever the rules and resulting landscape is. If I don't like it anymore, I'll do something else.

John Adamczyk
Owner/Driver - 5X Racing


#79
Strongbad

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Instead of the black box, what about using data acquisition to help police cheating?
Pull data from a number of cars during the event and check for anomalies with the data. Any car with suspicious data would then be looked at the old fashion way, in the Tech shed!
How difficult would it be to develop some software that could quickly scan a number of data points taken from various cars and highlight any discrepancies?
Maybe Glenn or Ron from Traqmate could chime in on this one and tell us the pros/cons?
On the surface, it seems like an efficient way finding cars that exaggerate the rules.

Joseph

#80
Jim Drago

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Depends on who you ask. Some people floated the post race dyno idea, you shot it down saying it's trivial, I'm interested to hear how it's so easily defeated by high school dropouts.

@Mike, DQ for limp mode or too little horsepower. Rebuttal?



I don't feel it is appropriate for me to spell out a bunch of ways to cheat.

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NASA Champs Winner - NASA Champs Winner Hoosier Super Tour points Champion - Hoosier Super Tour points Champion ARRC Champion - Won the ARRC Race in a Spec Miata Series Champ - Won a points based series in a Spec Miata BFG Supertour Winner - Majors Winner - Circuit of the Americas Winner - We have a Winnah! - Won their 1st race... Congratulations! June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner June Sprints winner  - June Sprints winner SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America SCCA National Champion - Won SCCA Runoffs at Road America




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