603 replies to this topic

[dmathias]

I'd be all for enforcing a power/weight ratio limit. NASA does it for AIX already, I see a dyno at every NASA race at Mid-O. Why not for SM?

Edit: engine claim rule will have me running for another class. These ain't gokarts and I ain't spending a day R-n-R'ing my motor.

[TJKearney]

in my experience 90% of the cheating is done in the mid pack. The guys at the front expect technical inspections, so it keeps most in line. Most in the middle assume the guys at the front are cheating so they must as well to keep up.

Keep pointing fingers...it's the easiest bullshit excuse there is in racing. The fast guys just know 90% of you lowly mid-packers are cheating, and the mid-packers just assume the local hotshoe has an aura that follows them around the paddock...and his shit doesn't smell....like Gorilla dung.

Seriously though...really Jim? My personal opinion is the cheating is evenly distributed throughout the field. But the "haves" know the gray areas and have scapegoats (pretty much defacto standard is when anyone gets blown in at a National the "it wasn't me" email/post comes out a few days later and all the fanboys rub each others backsides). The "have nots" don't know any better and just fire up the Nitrous bottle....the end game is the same. Both are spending money the class doesn't need.

Just one "slightly better than mid-packer's" opinion

[Danny Steyn]

Colin

The economy has had a HUGE effect on everyone's discretionary income, and must not be ignored when looking at car counts. Every class has been affected. Its not only the issues that we are adressing here that have hurt out numbers

However it does not negate anything that you posted.

I still come back to my theory that in the beginning, all is good. When something matures, some of the shine comes off the apple.

SM is still the best game in town - so lets not just fix it, lets make it better - where are the suggestions guys


SUGGESTION LIST SO FAR

• Stop changing the spec - try and get to a sensible spec quickly and hold it for at least a few years - regular spec rule changes are not good for the class
• Close the gap between NASA and SCCA - find a middle ground on weight and restrictor size
• Close the parity issue between 1.6 and 99 - this is really hard as it is SO TRACK DEPENDENT
• Increase tech or the rampant cheating will escalate - I vote for returning the $10 tech compliance fee to tech NOT ONLY THE FRONT, but also RANDOM MID PACK racers
• Horsepower Cap?
• Split 90-97 Regional - 99+ National?
• Engine claim rule?
• 
  any more suggestions???

[Tom Sager]

Keep pointing fingers...it's the easiest bullshit excuse there is in racing. The fast guys just know 90% of you lowly mid-packers are cheating, and the mid-packers just assume the local hotshoe has an aura that follows them around the paddock...and his shit doesn't smell....like Gorilla dung.

Seriously though...really Jim? My personal opinion is the cheating is evenly distributed throughout the field. But the "haves" know the gray areas and have scapegoats (pretty much defacto standard is when anyone gets blown in at a National the "it wasn't me" email/post comes out a few days later and all the fanboys rub each others backsides). The "have nots" don't know any better and just fire up the Nitrous bottle....the end game is the same. Both are spending money the class doesn't need.

Just one "slightly better than mid-packer's" opinion

I think there is still a sizeable population of cars out there that would benefit greatly from a dyno session with an experienced tuner and a short alignment session with an experienced setup person. I don't get a close look at too many cars other than my own but when I have had the opportunity I have seen a variety of things that would be simple and inexpensive to correct or improve.

[Jim Drago]

Seriously though...really Jim? My personal opinion is the cheating is evenly distributed throughout the field. But the "haves" know the gray areas and have scapegoats (pretty much defacto standard is when anyone gets blown in at a National the "it wasn't me" email/post comes out a few days later and all the fanboys rub each others backsides). The "have nots" don't know any better and just fire up the Nitrous bottle....the end game is the same. Both are spending money the class doesn't need.

Just one "slightly better than mid-packer's" opinion

I didn't realize my "opinion" could be wrong I have started several races at the back and often get to a car or two that I have more problems passing than most at the front. Do people cheat every where in the field, sure they do. Really doesn't even matter where the cheating occurs. I also believe there is far less cheating than most do.
Jim

[dstevens]

I agree and that echoes my experiences racing other spec series. The difference is in the extent of the "gains" in engines. You aren't going to get a 120 or 130 HP sealed engine when San Francisco region adjusts and seals out of the box and regular street motors at ~113HP for a flat ~$300 fee. I would think that it really should NOT be that hard to implement something similar elsewhere...

Really it would only be more expensive for the guys looking to spend money regardless. They can go and buy 5 motors that chances are will be within a few HP of each other. The rest of the field would pay the fee to get sealed or buy one new sealed motor when their current sealed motor dies and be happy to compete with our buds in our region.

In fact that worked so well in the SFR that the dude in SSM that had his engine sealed then went out an set not only an SSM track record but an SM record as well. And that was with undisclosed tunings above the seal. Sealed engines don't increase parity. I've seen cheats in sealed packages including Rotax, Legends and SBC 602 crates. Tech does. There is basically no tech at most races yet people wonder why guys are using cheater or gray market parts? Finish top 5 in a race? Better bring some tools. I think to the goal of limiting HP and perhaps getting a handle on who is doing what that a dyno in tech would go a long way toward that rather than sealing the engines.

[Bench Racer]

Folks, I'm reading these posts with great interest & I believe some of you should sit back & remember at this point this should be brain storming. I been retired so long I don't remember the second phase of the process. Might be discussion after all the thoughts are on the table.

The point being when some of you are starting your positive or negative pick apart of what others are throwing into the process, your backing some number of people up & some people will not participate.

Ya, some of you are all reading/thinking here comes that confrontational ol @#*%. Hey, were all cut from different cloth.

[JBlaisdell]

...

[dstevens]

I would be willing to wager you'll be packing your bags and heading to Texas after the contract at Road American ends if you want to participate in the Runoffs.

You mean the roval at TMS? Or are you thinking someplace further south with better music and BBQ?

I've taken a couple of CotA surveys and one thing I put when they asked what other types of races there should be I said club sports car racing.

[naparsei]

SUGGESTION LIST SO FAR

• Stop changing the spec - try and get to a sensible spec quickly and hold it for at least a few years - regular spec rule changes are not good for the class
• Close the gap between NASA and SCCA - find a middle ground on weight and restrictor size
• Close the parity issue between 1.6 and 99 - this is really hard as it is SO TRACK DEPENDENT
• Increase tech or the rampant cheating will escalate - I vote for returning the $10 tech compliance fee to tech NOT ONLY THE FRONT, but also RANDOM MID PACK racers
• Horsepower Cap?
• Split 90-97 Regional - 99+ National?
• Engine claim rule?

I agree with the first 4. Horsepower Cap seems like a Mickey Mouse way to solve the problem; if tech gets more aggressive, cheating should go down. Splitting the classes? I am not sure - then if you want to do both you need 2 cars? And in regional there is a still a "better" and "worse" car depending on the track? Engine claim rule I would be against - easy to see how it increases cost and decreases fun.

I just want to race, and feel like when I measure my performance against others in this Spec classes it is a legitimate comparison - not just in terms of position but lap times. I agree the winners would win regardless, but my $10K car vs. $30K car doesn't tell me as much about my skill relative to theirs, only that's worse - but not by how much.

Sure the economy is impacting all car counts. That's why being to race in SCCA, NASA, and anywhere else with 1 car which doesn't need to be reconfigured will help SM be "strong" where other classes are "weak".

[5X Racing]

Here's a concept for mulling since it seems there's a HUGE dividing line amongst the guys willing (and able) to spend big bucks at nationals, and the guys that think that's absurd (and are not willing or able to spend big bucks):

Along the lines of Colin's idea of splitting the class NA/NB: Is creating a "regional only" SM class with only NA cars and calling it "Regional only SM" and keeping it a regional class, much like the way SM started, and then keeping the current SM rules the way they are now and as it continues, and calling it "National only SM" too far fetched? The guys who don't want to spend tons of money on a car can run in the Regional Only SM with their NA cars and be competitive, AND in addition "up-class" and run in National SM if they wanted to (albeit with the knowledge and acceptance that they are not going to be competitive and it is just for fun). Then the "National SM" guys have their own class to develop their cars in a competitive, relative environment cannot "down-class" and have to stay in the National SM class with the knowledge that that class is NA only.

Jim D and Bruce said it themselves, they typically "do not to use their National cars in a Regional race". So, it seems there is already a separation between the Top National runners and the "for fun" regional runners, why not make it an actual separation and give the budget guys what they want and the all out competition National Championship gunners what they want? Almost like a major and minor league type of environment.

Just a thought that promotes having your cake and eating it too...

[dstevens]

Edit: engine claim rule will have me running for another class. These ain't gokarts and I ain't spending a day R-n-R'ing my motor.

Regional and national/international karting haven't had claim rules in quite sometime. Local club races may have them but by and large claimer rules are out. National, big league karting is "all growed up now". Some can easily spend $50k plus on programs a year and for the ones that go overseas it can be $100k. It ain't your daddy's Flathead anymore...

[James York]

You mean the roval at TMS? Or are you thinking someplace further south with better music and BBQ?

I've taken a couple of CotA surveys and one thing I put when they asked what other types of races there should be I said club sports car racing.

Yea, about 3 hours south.

[Jim Drago]

Yea, about 3 hours south.

Oh no, not MSR Houston?

[James York]

Oh no, not MSR Houston?

You overshot the corner! Turn around some.

[Jim Drago]

You overshot the corner! Turn around some.

[Tom Sager]

I didn't realize my "opinion" could be wrong
Jim

I think you should have realized this years ago.

[Steve D]

I still remember well the SportCar cover proclaiming "Race for under $10,000" above a photo of a Spec Miata.

It DIDN'T say "Win for under $10,000". You can still race for under $10,000.

What has changed over the past several years? We, as individuals have.

I'll try to be brief. When I bought my first SM for $15k in 2005, I didn't know much of anything about the cars or the class except it was about the cheapest thing with big fields.

Six years later I now own a shop-built 99. I now know a ton more about Miatas and racing in general. I spend a lot more now than I did then. I now know what I didn't know back then. I see more of the frailties and foibles in the class than I could have back then. Those imperfections were there then. The fast guys in great equipment (like Buras - I can remember seeing him in the paddock thinking he was a god; now he's just some dude who makes donuts and races on the weekends) have always done well. They always will.

Has the class changed? Not as much as you would think reading these threads. There are still a bunch of $10k cars out there running a few events a year. All the incessant parity bitching leads a lot of people to believe the car is the reason they aren't at the pointy end. Bullcrap.

People still enter the class. Maybe fewer than in years past, but we need to ask ourselves - is it the economy? Is it the incessant parity whining? I swear to god we are the source of the worst PR for the class.

This class still presents the best value out there -- but only for people who ignore (or are ignorant) of the cheats that gain a hundreth or a tenth, strap in the car, run clean and hard, and laugh and tell lies in the paddock afterwards.

[Danny Steyn]

Here's a concept for mulling since it seems there's a HUGE dividing line amongst the guys willing (and able) to spend big bucks at nationals, and the guys that think that's absurd (and are not willing or able to spend big bucks):

Along the lines of Colin's idea of splitting the class NA/NB: Is creating a "regional only" SM class with only NA cars and calling it "Regional only SM" and keeping it a regional class, much like the way SM started, and then keeping the current SM rules the way they are now and as it continues, and calling it "National only SM" too far fetched? The guys who don't want to spend tons of money on a car can run in the Regional Only SM with their NA cars and be competitive, AND in addition "up-class" and run in National SM if they wanted to (albeit with the knowledge and acceptance that they are not going to be competitive and it is just for fun). Then the "National SM" guys have their own class to develop their cars in a competitive, relative environment cannot "down-class" and have to stay in the National SM class with the knowledge that that class is NA only.

Jim D and Bruce said it themselves, they typically "do not to use their National cars in a Regional race". So, it seems there is already a separation between the Top National runners and the "for fun" regional runners, why not make it an actual separation and give the budget guys what they want and the all out competition National Championship gunners what they want? Almost like a major and minor league type of environment.

Just a thought that promotes having your cake and eating it too...

John

I have a great deal of respect for what you do for our sport, and even more so for the idealism that courses through your veins.

I dont want to shoot down your suggestion before it gains traction, but from what I have seen, the minute they are split it into National and Regional, there will be those that do the same stuff in both classes. Nothing will change

I understand your HP cap idea, and the more I think about it the more I like it. What I like about it is that you get to the "truth" immediately, without the invasive tear down trying to find what was done, in the full knowledged that the tech guys actually dont know what to look for anyway. I pu truth in quotation marks as I am sure that peopel will figure out a way to game teh system as they always do

Does this work or is it pie in the sky? Too Idealistic???

• Set the cap limit at whatever - say 120HP.
• Make a portable dyno available at the track to all on test day before the race, and on race days. Get on teh dyno, pay a nominal fee, make sure you are under the cap
• After a qualifying or race session, send the top 3-5 PLUS at least 2 random mid pack runners to the dyno immediately - cannot go to pits or put the hood up.
• Dyno guy gets in and runs your car to see what their numbers are
• If your numbers are way over limit, lose your qualifying time or your race position.
• Detune the car to meet the cap.

Add your ideas to this or shoot it down in flames - but try to see it from both sides - not always that easy to do - way to easy to be negative

[Danny Steyn]

Steve - right on the button