120 replies to this topic

[MPR22]

Old topic off of the F-1 thread. I am about to embark on another NASA racing adventure and wanted to get opinions on the NASA passing rules. The CCR section 25.4 describes, passing, punting, right of line, and blocking.

Blocking is considered two consecutive line changes. Is this one addiational move after turn in?

There is also a series of diagrams depicting the dos and don'ts of passing on page 107, 108 and 109 of the 2012 CCRs. Those show the lead car being allowed to chop down randomly on the passing car if the passing car does not get his bumper to the drivers door.

That seems contrary to their intent of the rules.

[Rob Burgoon]

All of it is subject to steward's interpretation. They are really just guidelines. I got clarification that if you abuse a trailing car on a straight, if someone spins, it might not go your way even if the leading car "gets to chose the line".

But yes, in order to effect a pass, you've gotta get to the door to earn rights and even then you're expected to be prepared to drop tires in the dirt.

The rules are designed in such a way that it's possible to race without mirrors or knowing exactly where your rear corners are.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

Just my opinion, developed over 2 seasons from mine and my friends experiences....

There are lots of awesome people involved in NASA, in every facet, have met very few that I disliked
There are plenty of clean racers at NASA that do not take advantage of the rules but some do
Blocking is done mostly on the straights and never seen anyone get in trouble for it
I have been put 2 wheels off more than once, before even hitting the braking zone in an attempt to block my pass
Be prepaired to go 2 wheels in the grass to make a pass every time ( you may not need to but be prepaired)
A pass isn't completed until your rear bumper is in front of their bumper, be prepaired to be in the grass until that moment if need be
Be sure to run a camera, the more cameras you have the better as NASA in my experience feels the need to find fault nearly always
Guys at the front ar far less concerned with taking advantage of the abilty provided by the rules to put you into the grass or block you

I have no way of knowing what their intent was when making such rules, I disagree with the way their rules are written.
Rules are Rules
I race with NASA as well as SCCA, I perfer one over the other, and I vote with my pocket book each season as to which group I like best.

[MPR22]

According the to rules and especially the diagram on page 109 of CCR the lead car has the right to turn down on the trail car as long as he gives him 3/4 of car width of track to make the pass. A true defensive line would prevent the pass and leave the trail car at fault for contact, that is fine However, it appears the lead car can start the turn in on a normal line and then change his line to block per the rules.

Blocking: A driver may chose to protect his or her line as so long as it is not considered blocking. Blocking is defined as two (2) consecutive line changes to "protect his/her line," and in doing so, impedes the vehicle that is trying to pass with each of the two (2) consecutive movements. Drivers are encouraged to check with the Race Diretcor before the start of the race.

So, curiously you have to talk to a Race Director to understand what the the blocking rule means. Interestingly it does not say the Race Director will tell every racer what his or her interpretation of the rules are for Blocking before the start of the race. So if the person you are passing interprets it as "I can turn down on anyone as long as i leave 3/4 car width to the edge of the track and only use one move to do so" then the passing car gets wrecked and you have two pissed off drivers. One of which will be very dissappointed when they talk to the Race Director after the race.

NASA Officials I suggest the following change to your CCR's

Blocking: A driver may chose to protect his or her line as so long as it is not considered blocking. Blocking is defined as two (2) consecutive line changes to "protect his/her line," and in doing so, impedes the vehicle that is trying to pass with each of the two (2) consecutive movements. In no way does this give the lead car the right to create contact with the passing car to prevent a pass.

This takes the interepretation part out of the rule. No need to ask which way this Race Director will be interpretting the rule.

I know Dean Thomas was going to look into having the rules reviewed again, maybe he can chime in. Or Mr. Mueller could you please help.

[FTodaro]

Don't get me Started on this topic, I have my opinions about the NASA rule, its not good.

Why don't they make life simple and just follow the SCCA rule of requiring you give your competitor racing room vs trying to figure out at any one split second in a corner if your competitor has you by the door rule and thus at the next apex or the apex your 10 feet from that you may have to go to the grass to get through. Dumb rule in my mind.

As far as the blocking rule goes, I think that is pretty simple. You get one move.

All the rules are subject to somewhat of a subjective interpitation and for sure implementation.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

I cant speek for Mueller, but I suspect he would be in agreement that putting someone in the grass is just plain BS, unless it is to avoid an accident on track in front of you. Mueller is also SM director, not the head of Rules for all of NASA, even if he agrees and would like to change said rule, he is but one voice, one influence in the rules making proceedure of a company that is in this biz for profit. If they view their rules as a competive business advantage there is no way you will ever have this rule changed or reversed. I do not pretend to know what NASA's view of this rule is. But I have had people tell me many times how they love NASA and the NASA rules so much more than SCCA's. Then I have met many that have the same view of this rule that I have, I would say it is split down the middle 50-50. I would personally like to see the rule rewritten but again that is just an opinion in which we all have one. Like I tell good friends often "You can wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first"

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[Rob Burgoon]

vs trying to figure out at any one split second in a corner if your competitor has you by the door rule

Personally I don't like trying to figure out at any one split second in a corner if my competitor has achieved 2 inches of overlap with my rear bumper and is going to spin me for "not leaving room".

The other upside of the nasa rules is that for most collisions, if your contact makes the leading car spin, you're hitting him too far back and likely at fault.

This means it's not easy to spin someone out of your way and then blame them like it is with SCCA's rules.

[Rob Burgoon]

Was it Mr. Drago that was burned by that on the last lap at the runoffs a few years back?

[john mueller]

[Caveman-kwebb99]

mmmmmhmmmm

[FTodaro]

Personally I don't like trying to figure out at any one split second in a corner if my competitor has achieved 2 inches of overlap with my rear bumper and is going to spin me for "not leaving room".

The other upside of the nasa rules is that for most collisions, if your contact makes the leading car spin, you're hitting him too far back and likely at fault.

This means it's not easy to spin someone out of your way and then blame them like it is with SCCA's rules.

I was thinking of the other way around where you were in the lead going to the apex but they get the nose on you and the you at the last min. realize you have to go to the grass to get to the exit vs. just keeping your car on the track and get through the corner. This was my one race suspension for not going to the grass.
I have posted before its geting old I know. I am the silver with black strips on the right, the red car to my drivers right is ahead of me as we come over the hill and we hit. I got the suspension for not going to the grass vs. holding a line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhc3VeVymtY

I understand the rule, and most of the time competators don't try to press the limits of the rules but when bad things happen that rule bites people who were just trying to get through without being cute.

I just like knowing that I can atleast have my little ribbon of track, particulary at the start when this happend. My goal is to just get to the point that we are two cars dueling.

Going back to the discussion about implentation of the rules, I think it is not necessary to always find someone at fault for contact. sometimes it just racing. I felt under the circumstance it was a racing incident.

I will point out that was the last contact I had all year after a full ticket of SCCA and NASA racing so maybe it made me a better dirver.

[john mueller]

While setting the rules for the car's I'm one voice in a room with NASA, but carry the weight of the SM community (so, they tend to listen more). However, when it comes to stuff like this I truly am just another racer, but with probably more access to the discussions.

Honestly IMO you should read them THEN speak with your NASA Regional Director & Stewards (not your SM directors) to get a ruling on how it's gonna be called. Sounds like a cop-out because it is.... Check local because from a 'NASA Nationals' point-of-view it's documented and clear. Just ask Rob Burgoon, I've watched him have several conversations about this very topic.

Here are the major parts of 25.4. Also read Section 26 (APPENDIX A) with all the diagrams too.

http://www.nasaprora...m/rules/ccr.pdf

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
25.4 Rules For Overtaking (page 103)

25.4.1 Passing General
The responsibility for the decision to pass another car, and to do it safely, rests with the overtaking driver. The overtaken driver should be aware that he/she is being passed and must not impede the pass by blocking. A driver who does not watch his/her mirrors or who appears to be blocking another car seeking a pass may be black-flagged and/or penalized. The act of passing is initiated when the trailing car’s (Car A) front bumper overlaps with the lead car’s (Car rear bumper. The act of passing is complete when Car A’s rear bumper is ahead of Car B’s front bumper. “NO PASSING” means a pass cannot even be initiated. Any overlap in a NO PASSING area is considered illegal.

25.4.2 Punting
The term “punting” is defined as nose to tail (or side-of-the-nose to side-of-the-tail) contact, where the leading car is significantly knocked off of the racing line. Once the trailing car has its front wheel next to the driver of the other vehicle, it is considered that the trailing car has a right to be there. And, that the leading driver must leave the trailing driver enough “racing room.” In most cases, “racing room” is defined as “at least three quarters of one car width.” If adequate racing room is left for the trailing car, and there is incidental contact made between the cars, the contact will be considered “side-to-side.” In most cases, incidental side-to-side contact is considered to be “just a racing incident.” If, in the case of side-to-side contact, one of the two cars leaves the racing surface (involuntarily) then it may still be considered “a racing incident.”

Note: See specific class rules for variations in this rule.

25.4.3 Right to the Line
The driver in front has the right to choose any line, so long as not to be considered blocking. The driver attempting to make a pass shall have the right to the line when their front wheel is next to the driver of the other vehicle. Note: This rule may be superseded by class specific rules.

25.4.4 Blocking
A driver may choose to protect his or her line so long as it is not considered blocking. Blocking is defined as two (2) consecutive line changes to “protect his/her line,” and in doing so, impedes the vehicle that is trying to pass with each of the two (2) consecutive movements. Drivers are encouraged to check with the Race Director for a full explanation before the start of the race.

25.4.5 Incident Review Board
The Race Director may assemble an Incident Review Board (IRB) for the purposes of investigating on-track incidences. The Race Director may give the IRB the power to make decisions to determine fault and/or issue penalties. All decisions made by the IRB may be appealed to the Race Director. The Race Director may elect to override the IRB decisions and/or modify penalties.

[Jim Boemler]

We have a couple of spots on a local track where the racing line is only a couple of feet from the edge of a concrete barrier -- hitting it at racing speed could easily be fatal. I'd hate to think that some NASA steward is gonna call "three-quarters" of a car width "enough". I much prefer SCCA's idea of leaving racing room on the racing surface.

[john mueller]

We have a couple of spots on a local track where the racing line is only a couple of feet from the edge of a concrete barrier -- hitting it at racing speed could easily be fatal. I'd hate to think that some NASA steward is gonna call "three-quarters" of a car width "enough". I much prefer SCCA's idea of leaving racing room on the racing surface.

Agreed. That's why I suggest talking to the local NASA folks to get the skinny.... Here in SoCal, T9 at Willow Springs could have dire consequences if you get launched into the infield (I've seen a car get launched 6-feet in the air upside-down)... In that turn any touch from the side or rear would be harshly dealt with over others.

[Keith Novak]

Question about how to interpret this rule... Say a car moves onto my inside to pass, but they move WAY inside so I move closer to them but don't get in front of them, or if they're beside me I just move close. They then move further away from me to create more space. Can I move closer to them again taking up that space since I'm not impeding their forward movement as much as making them stick to the line they chose, or is that considered 2 moves and blocking?

[Jim Boemler]

Thanks, John. Unfortunately NASA isn't operating up here at all -- wish they were. I've only run with them once (at the 25), but it was a perfectly good experience. Despite the rules, everyone was very polite on track -- probably says more about endurance racing than anything else.

[john mueller]

Say a car moves onto my inside to pass, but they move WAY inside so I move closer to them but don't get in front of them, or if they're beside me I just move close. They then move further away from me to create more space. Can I move closer to them again taking up that space since I'm not impeding their forward movement as much as making them stick to the line they chose, or is that considered 2 moves and blocking?

Just my opinion: The second move over is a total prick move (grey area but prob 'legal' if they moved away 2nd time too)... However as a competitor I'd not appreciate it and would seek out the race steward to have a conversation about it. NASA racing is for fun, being over aggressive like that would be 'effing stupid.

Just my opinion though.

[Rob Burgoon]

We have a couple of spots on a local track where the racing line is only a couple of feet from the edge of a concrete barrier -- hitting it at racing speed could easily be fatal. I'd hate to think that some NASA steward is gonna call "three-quarters" of a car width "enough". I much prefer SCCA's idea of leaving racing room on the racing surface.

In the NASA rules, if there is a barrier instead of grass, you get a full car width.

[Rob Burgoon]

Question about how to interpret this rule... Say a car moves onto my inside to pass, but they move WAY inside so I move closer to them but don't get in front of them, or if they're beside me I just move close. They then move further away from me to create more space. Can I move closer to them again taking up that space since I'm not impeding their forward movement as much as making them stick to the line they chose, or is that considered 2 moves and blocking?

Neither one sounds like it impedes the other driver, so neither one should count as a "move" from my understanding.

[Rob Burgoon]

Just my opinion: The second move over is a total prick move (grey area but prob 'legal' if they moved away 2nd time too)... However as a competitor I'd not appreciate it and would seek out the race steward to have a conversation about it. NASA racing is for fun, being over aggressive like that would be 'effing stupid.

Just my opinion though.

Staying close to an attacker ensures that your angle and his angle won't end up too dramatically different so it's less likely either of you will make an error and whack the other guy hard. Not sure if it's optimal, but I can't fault a guy for employing it. Depends on how close you are crowding him I guess, whether he just wants space, or is genuinely afraid the cars will touch. Either way, the rules are clear, you can overlap mirrors all you want.