120 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

My suggestion to him was that if he had taken mid-track more aggressively coming out of the prior turn, he would have signaled his clear intention not to give Keith the corner. When he tracked out and stayed left, Keith took that to mean Nash was going to give him room all the way though the corner.

Maybe Nash just wanted to drive his line and believed Keith understood his responsibilities as a nasa racer?

[Tom Sager]

I was introduced to the NASA passing rules last year. IMO SCCA should adopt the same or very similar. When you know you have to report a metal to metal after any session and know that someone will be looking into the incident, you tend to behave differently. Our class in SCCA would benefit from this. It's good for workers and it's good for the drivers.

[Muda]

So the race leader can hang off line, leave a hole big enough to drive the tow car through for 5 seconds when you know ur bud has a run on you, wait till he gets his nose and 1/2 a wheel inside, start to turn in, hesitate, continue until you make contact and it's his fault!? Something needs adjusting.

[Steve D]

Maybe Nash just wanted to drive his line and believed Keith understood his responsibilities as a nasa racer?

Rob, Clearly we disagree so this will be my last post on the subject.

Nash was entitled to drive his line. He was 100% "rulebook right". And wrecked.

That's not the goal of most folks I enjoy sharing the track with and I don't believe it was his goal.

[Jim Drago]

What was it Bennett used to say about being right and paying to fix the damage anyway?

[Keith Andrews]

I'm in a hotel room watching ski jumping on TV. It's either that or a Bocci ball like indoor sport. I am disappointed Steve D was so early in posting the actual result to my clip. Like I said earlier, I took it as a learning experience.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

What was it Bennett used to say about being right and paying to fix the damage anyway?

Are you saying he might have swapped some paint? What does he have to do with all of us anyway he is retired!

[Jim Boemler]

Yeah, nobody can learn anything from a retired driver.

[tony senese]

So the race leader can hang off line, leave a hole big enough to drive the tow car through for 5 seconds when you know ur bud has a run on you, wait till he gets his nose and 1/2 a wheel inside, start to turn in, hesitate, continue until you make contact and it's his fault!? Something needs adjusting.

To be Honest John, if you are good enough to time that right and NOT wreck, knock yourself out I will give you the thumbs up when ya make it. Personally, I wouldn't try it no matter how "right" I was. Just holding my line in that situation got me knocked out of the lead and wrecked in the rain at NJMP last year. It was little consolation that the guy who tried the move was DQ'd.

[LarryKing]

Race cars don't kill people, race car drivers kill people.

Good night everyone - I'm outa here.

[john mueller]

...you also have the option of backing off until you're through the turn.

+1,000,000 !!!

Oy... well, I see it differently. #1 intentions? really? #2. Keith wasn't far enough up alongside and needed to be ready to pull his hand out of the cookie jar if the lid started closing. Until you get to the door, you have ZERO rights.

If you can't get to his door initially with your attack, with NASA it's probably a bad idea to make that attack.

Rob, knowing the back story (from Steve) is valuable to the ruling. Sometimes if things are getting 'chippy' the ref needs to blow the whistle/throw the flag... Unfortunately in that instance there was contact and I suspect a few more guys had their race ruined in addition to Nash & Keith. It also sends a message to the rest of class.

So the race leader can hang off line, leave a hole big enough to drive the tow car through for 5 seconds when you know ur bud has a run on you, wait till he gets his nose and 1/2 a wheel inside, start to turn in, hesitate, continue until you make contact and it's his fault!? Something needs adjusting.

Chances are if the 'leader' is concentrating that much on what is going on behind him then you'll be movin'-on-by the next corrner. Ask your local NASA Regional Director for their interpretation, because that's how it's gong to be enforced in your region.

[Keith Andrews]

For those that don't know, Nash and I are good friends. We find our selves on the same part of the track frequently. This was one of those racing things that happen with two competitive guys. Fortunately no one else was involved in our get together. I was able to finish the race, Nash was not. I had many other options but unfortunately was not skilled or experienced enough to employ them.

[FTodaro]

My personal view is that I would rather blame both drivers than ever call anything a "racing incident" implying no fault on either party.

Steve I have had the pleasure of meeting with you and racing with your organization, and respect the way you handle your position, I hope that people can respectfully disagree. I think if you look with hindsight you can always find fault someplace, but hindsight is huge benefit knowing what 'happened" in the cockpit as you know, it’s not always predictable. Finding Fault and issuing penalties can be and should be two different things. I think its constructive to pull two drivers aside and say this is what you could do better next time. If someone’s judgment is clearly "bone head" or bad intent, I say kill them, but sometimes you just things happen on the track that even good drivers find themselves in a pickle. So if you’re saying you can find fault but not penalize I with you, my experience is however, (not with you) that NASA, and the rule of coming into the impound, video the cars get statements from the drivers, on any and all contact takes the fun out of it for me.

Now, I will point out Other than my one incident I have had no contact in like 18 races last year.
Personally, I like the way our SCCA region handles contact. Drivers can protest contact but the our region leaves the drivers in the driver seat, meaning if you want to protest you can and it will be reviewed or like we do, the drivers talk to each other and work it out. Bluntly, it means more to me if my fellow competitor comes and talks to me rather than a race official. If I make a mistake I go Man-up.
I like the way you handled the situation, I just think its not necessary to make a ruling on every contact and send someone home when they had no ill will and a close call on the rule.

I know I'll get rapped in the chops for this, and it goes against all that Saint Senna stands for but...

...you also have the option of backing off until you're through the turn.

That is the hindsight thing again, yes if you can read the mind of your competitor that works, but hard to do when you tring to get to the front. I did get better after this of leaning my competior, and knowing who to trust in the corner and who not too.

[Jim Drago]

For those that don't know, Nash and I are good friends. We find our selves on the same part of the track frequently. This was one of those racing things that happen with two competitive guys. Fortunately no one else was involved in our get together. I was able to finish the race, Nash was not. I had many other options but unfortunately was not skilled or experienced enough to employ them.

Nice post.. None of us can be accused of making the best of decisions in the heat of battle..

[Jim Boemler]

Personally, I like the way our SCCA region handles contact. Drivers can protest contact but the our region leaves the drivers in the driver seat, meaning if you want to protest you can and it will be reviewed or like we do, the drivers talk to each other and work it out. Bluntly, it means more to me if my fellow competitor comes and talks to me rather than a race official. If I make a mistake I go Man-up.

Manning up often just doesn't happen, because each driver thinks he's in the right, and it's the other guys job to man up. It's natural to think you're in the right. While I agree that "blame" isn't always the right approach, I really like the idea of the officials facilitating a meeting of the minds about every contact. First, it announces that contact is NOT the norm, and is to be avoided. Second, it lets each party describe the incident from their perspective, so each can hear the OTHER guys view. Ideally it would include an impartial observer as well, be it another driver or corner worker. I've seen hundreds of contact incidents without a single protest, so I think the officials being the ones to start a discussion is a good thing.

[Rob Burgoon]

Manning up often just doesn't happen, because each driver thinks he's in the right, and it's the other guys job to man up. It's natural to think you're in the right. While I agree that "blame" isn't always the right approach, I really like the idea of the officials facilitating a meeting of the minds about every contact. First, it announces that contact is NOT the norm, and is to be avoided. Second, it lets each party describe the incident from their perspective, so each can hear the OTHER guys view. Ideally it would include an impartial observer as well, be it another driver or corner worker. I've seen hundreds of contact incidents without a single protest, so I think the officials being the ones to start a discussion is a good thing.

This is where I like NASA's approach. If someone wasn't knocked offline, it wasn't contact. Now go away so I can change tires and refuel for PTE.

[Keith Andrews]

Nice post.. None of us can be accused of making the best of decisions in the heat of battle..

Thank you

[Nash Lawson]

I just got to this post and just to throw my 2 cents in:

1. I do have to commend Steve in the way he handled the incident with Keith and I. To say I was fired up would be an understatement. Steve did his best to calm the situation. He listened to what each of us were shouting at him and looked at the video and made in my opinion a good ruling.

2. Keith and I are good friends and I consider him one of the best, most competitive and honest drivers around. In that race we had a field of only three Miatas and we were the front running Miatas both days. I think we were within a .01 or so of qualifying and race lap times. It was a good race the day before and was a great race until I went off. I did get upset and told Steve and Keith the reasons. We agreed to disagree on some and agree on others.

3. My thought process on the passing rule is that I look at where and when I am passing and at the end of the day will I damage my car, a competitor’s car or maybe get someone hurt. Anyone who has raced with me will probably agree that I am a fairly aggressive driver and will try very hard to get to the front and stay there. Keith is the same and that is what happened in that video, we both wanted that position. I did think I was far enough ahead of Keith and left enough room for him to race. Physics disagreed!

I am sure this subject will come up again and again. The guy spinning and the guy still on the track have very different views of what happened. Whatever the rules say, we all race together and want to win, but I want to load my car up and see everyone else go home with a car ready to race again next week. If that means I have to give an extra inch and then pass on the straight; so be it.

I would like to think; actually I am confident that Keith never put me off intentionally and never would. That is why we still race as hard as ever when were at the track. I will go door to door with him anytime and anywhere.

[Rob Burgoon]

I just got to this post and just to throw my 2 cents in:

1. I do have to commend Steve in the way he handled the incident with Keith and I. To say I was fired up would be an understatement. Steve did his best to calm the situation. He listened to what each of us were shouting at him and looked at the video and made in my opinion a good ruling.

2. Keith and I are good friends and I consider him one of the best, most competitive and honest drivers around. In that race we had a field of only three Miatas and we were the front running Miatas both days. I think we were within a .01 or so of qualifying and race lap times. It was a good race the day before and was a great race until I went off. I did get upset and told Steve and Keith the reasons. We agreed to disagree on some and agree on others.

3. My thought process on the passing rule is that I look at where and when I am passing and at the end of the day will I damage my car, a competitor’s car or maybe get someone hurt. Anyone who has raced with me will probably agree that I am a fairly aggressive driver and will try very hard to get to the front and stay there. Keith is the same and that is what happened in that video, we both wanted that position. I did think I was far enough ahead of Keith and left enough room for him to race. Physics disagreed!

I am sure this subject will come up again and again. The guy spinning and the guy still on the track have very different views of what happened. Whatever the rules say, we all race together and want to win, but I want to load my car up and see everyone else go home with a car ready to race again next week. If that means I have to give an extra inch and then pass on the straight; so be it.

I would like to think; actually I am confident that Keith never put me off intentionally and never would. That is why we still race as hard as ever when were at the track. I will go door to door with him anytime and anywhere.

But but but... you didn't need to leave him any room. And Keith didn't try to get out of the way. *sigh*

[Nash Lawson]

Rob,

I felt your frustration and we had those discussions that day. Its always easier to be calm and level headed six months later. From what I learned that day, Shut the door soon and agressively after exiting to let the following car know your intentions. Im sure Keith would agree; "be ready for anything".