120 replies to this topic

[Keith Novak]

That was my line of thinking Rob. I wasn't thinking of crowding them close in terms of inches. A good 2 feet but not 2 car widths and deliberately rather than abruptly.

I've had people get upset because they moved all the way to the other side of the track for a pass and I moved over half as far. A few times, people have moved over 2 car widths, I've moved over 1.5 to give them room but not infinate room. Then they move even further over and I've thought, "I left you a lousy line but plenty of racing room. Do I leave you with plenty of room but on an even worse line now that you did that?"

Apparently, it isn't black and white but not the friendliest racing to do so. Mostly a mid-pack/rookie question since the the more advanced racers aren't going to keep moving over and the newer guys feel crowded well before a couple inches.

[Jim Boemler]

In the NASA rules, if there is a barrier instead of grass, you get a full car width.

That helps at least. Thanks Rob, I don't have the NASA rules handy.

[john mueller]

Going back to the discussion about implentation of the rules, I think it is not necessary to always find someone at fault for contact. sometimes it just racing. I felt under the circumstance it was a racing incident.

Agreed

[Keith Andrews]

For your general entertainment and discussion. This was a race last year. I am the camera car. I learned many things from this event. Maybe others can as well.?? Racing.........




View on Vimeo.

[LarryKing]

I got the suspension for not going to the grass vs. holding a line.

I know I'll get rapped in the chops for this, and it goes against all that Saint Senna stands for but...

...you also have the option of backing off until you're through the turn.

[FTodaro]

For your general entertainment and discussion. This was a race last year. I am the camera car. I learned many things from this event. Maybe others can as well.?? Racing.........




View on Vimeo.

Keith were you issued penalty for contact.

[Muda]

For your general entertainment and discussion. This was a race last year. I am the camera car. I learned many things from this event. Maybe others can as well.?? Racing.........
View on Vimeo.

From my ignorant point of view you clearly had position for that corner and he turned in on you. What did the officials say about that one?

[edit] Two great minds!

[tony senese]

Sorry guys, but in NASA, we generally always rule in favor of the car being passed in situations like this. Also, had this not resulted in a change of position, there likely would have been no penalty. Calling the lead drivers move to head for the apex a "chop" is kinda crazy. He had nothing to gain by going for the apex at that point, I am sure he knew there was a car there and did not think going for the apex would result in contact. Remember, the passing driver can see everything and the driver being passed in this situation can't see anything.

[Steve D]

As the SM Series Director for that race, it was my responsibility to confer with the officials. I take full responsibility for the decision and accept whatever blame and/or criticism you have for that decision. The camera car (Keith) was penalized to a finishing position behind the lead car (Nash).

Keith and Nash had been dog-fighting all year long - not just during that race. Both are good guys and very talented drivers. In a nutshell, here's what I told them:

#1. Nash was at fault for not making his intentions clear when coming out of the caroussel that he was not going to let Keith by. If he had tracked out, then immediately moved mid-track (as he had moved track right earlier in the video to protect his position on the front straight) Keith would have known he was going to aggressively defend and I doubt Keith would have moved inside, but instead would have made the same outside-Turn-1 pass he made stick earlier.

#2. Keith was at fault because he hit Nash.

Neither guy intended for it to happen. Neither guy expected the other to push quite that hard. Both guys think they were right. Both guys told me later by email that they appreciated the manner in which I handled the incident. To me, that is success.

My personal view is that I would rather blame both drivers than ever call anything a "racing incident" implying no fault on either party.

[Rob Burgoon]

As the SM Series Director for that race, it was my responsibility to confer with the officials. I take full responsibility for the decision and accept whatever blame and/or criticism you have for that decision. The camera car (Keith) was penalized to a finishing position behind the lead car (Nash).

Keith and Nash had been dog-fighting all year long - not just during that race. Both are good guys and very talented drivers. In a nutshell, here's what I told them:

#1. Nash was at fault for not making his intentions clear when coming out of the caroussel that he was not going to let Keith by. If he had tracked out, then immediately moved mid-track (as he had moved track right earlier in the video to protect his position on the front straight) Keith would have known he was going to aggressively defend and I doubt Keith would have moved inside, but instead would have made the same outside-Turn-1 pass he made stick earlier.

#2. Keith was at fault because he hit Nash.

Neither guy intended for it to happen. Neither guy expected the other to push quite that hard. Both guys think they were right. Both guys told me later by email that they appreciated the manner in which I handled the incident. To me, that is success.

My personal view is that I would rather blame both drivers than ever call anything a "racing incident" implying no fault on either party.

Oy... well, I see it differently. #1 intentions? really? #2. Keith wasn't far enough up alongside and needed to be ready to pull his hand out of the cookie jar if the lid started closing. Until you get to the door, you have ZERO rights.

If you can't get to his door initially with your attack, with NASA it's probably a bad idea to make that attack.

[Rob Burgoon]

They do the blame everybody thing in SCCA socal (Cal Club), and it gets old REALLY fast.

[James York]

Irregardless of rules and post race quarterbacking, the lead car on the outside might have wanted to factor in what would happen to him if the car behind didn't lift/move over. What was that position at that time worth?

Podium, contingency $$, series championship....

[Caveman-kwebb99]

<sub>Like my original post alluded to... We can probably please 50% of the racers with a rule.

The problem is we can only please the 50% about 50% of the time!

Both groups are in general are great to race with, some racers will have a favorite others will just love them both as both allow us to excersize out rights or freedom to enjoy a great sport like racing!

I cant wear my gun in a Holster in public anymore and I cant pray in public but I can still take my car to a race track and run it wide open, and have a blast with somoe of the most terrific people I have ever met! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!</sub>

[LarryKing]

Ohio has a concealed carry law, and I've never heard of someone being arrested for praying.

[Caveman-kwebb99]

No not arrested just kicked out of school and other activities..... Concealed means you have to keep your gun in your pocket where nobody sees it and you have to go to a class and get a license even though our constitution gives us the right to bear arms. Mine is in my pocket for now, the police dont tend to like getting calls about how your gun is in plain sight they call that something like insighting pannic.

My point was about racing, much more so than about our other freedoms which seem to shrink on a daily basis. I got my nail clippers confiscated as a weapon at the airport recently. I guess I cannot lawfully carry those in my pocket now so I have made a mental note for next time.

But I can race just about any weekend somewhere in AMERICA! Long live NASA and SCCA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Steve D]

Oy... well, I see it differently. #1 intentions? really? #2. Keith wasn't far enough up alongside and needed to be ready to pull his hand out of the cookie jar if the lid started closing. Until you get to the door, you have ZERO rights.

If you can't get to his door initially with your attack, with NASA it's probably a bad idea to make that attack.

Perhaps I was not clear earlier. I approached my discussion with Nash and Keith from a "how do we prevent this in the future" kind of perspective - not just looking to spread blame around. In referring to Nash's "at fault" part in this, that is probably a harsh term. My suggestion to him was that if he had taken mid-track more aggressively coming out of the prior turn, he would have signaled his clear intention not to give Keith the corner. When he tracked out and stayed left, Keith took that to mean Nash was going to give him room all the way though the corner.

Clearly, with the benefit of hindsight, those assumptions on Keith's part were wrong.

I think Mr. York and I approach racing from a similar perspective. Nash had a healthy season points lead at that point. But he fights hard every time he puts his car on track. Much respeck, as Ali G would say.

[Steve D]

PS - "The rule book says I was right but I still need bodywork" is not my idea of a fun race.

[LarryKing]

On a personal note: I always give people with a gun in their pocket racing room, if not a point-by.

PS: Know your rights.

The Ohio Revised Code does not authorize, prohibit, or otherwise regulate the open carry of firearms on foot. Open Carry of a handgun or long gun is protected across Ohio by virtue of ORC 9.68 which preempts any municipal laws prohibiting the act. There is no requirement of residency or license to carry openly in Ohio - however, you must be legally in possession of the firearm that you intend to carry. It is recommended that you be at least 18 to carry a long gun, and 21 for handguns.
Important! You may not carry a "loaded" handgun in a motor vehicle in Ohio without a recognized Concealed Handgun License. The definition of "loaded" in Ohio means you must have no ammunition in the gun, and no ammunition in a compatible magazine or speedloader anywhere in the vehicle.
You may not carry a "loaded" (same definition) long arm in a vehicle, even with a recognized Concealed Handgun License.
Other exceptions - not a comprehensive list:

• You may not carry in a room or open area covered by a Class D liquor license (bars and restaurants that serve alcohol for consumption on the premises) http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.121
• "No Guns" signs DO carry legal weight other than trespassing

[Steve D]

That wasn't a gun. I was just happy to see you.

<<rimshot, cymbal crash>>

[LarryKing]

I was just happy to see you.

Not that kind of 'point-by'

<<hey-oh>>