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NASA passing rules


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#101
pat slattery

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That seems impossible to believe that the camera car got a penalty. :(



 

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#102
Dewey P

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Yep, he got penalized. Would have been moved to the rear if it wasn't for Dean and Laura Thomas talking with the director for an hour in defense of camera car.

#103
Rob Burgoon

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Dewey, I agree with Rob, the guy clearly had it coming, he tried to pass another car without a point by.

Also in case you were not sure, according to Rob's definition the carmera car punted the other car by going to the left and hitting him in the left front bumper with his right rear bumper. An awesome display of car control if I ever saw one. This guy could teach Steve G. a thing or two about how to punt people.

Rob, you may understand your race directors interpretation of the rules but it is clear that the rule are not obvious to the participants in ALL regions. The rule book even acknowledges this and points the participant to the "Passing Arbitrator" aka Race Director at each event for guidance in what the interpetation of the rules will be for that event. Why have a rule book with diagrams if the Passing Arbitrator gets to choose the rules for the weekend and beware the driver that failed to ask how it will be adjudicated.

What is absurd about this is that people don't see how this rule actually creates contact by dictating a dominant position on the track. Rob repeatedly extols the virtues of being in the lead car and how everyone else should yield a pass the moment the lead car wants the same piece of track. That isn't racing, that is a DE with no passing in the corners without a point.

Seriously even Rob can't say the passing car was at fault in the latest video. Yet a "Passing Arbitrator" ruled in favor of the car that was no longer in the lead position and hit a car that was driving away from him to get ready for the turn in at the next corner.

We are not racing big horsepower cars that can clear each other in a mater 1 to 2 seconds. We are racing in a Spec class that thanks to the new weights and plates are extremely similar in performance. Way to go powers that be , you made passing in NASA even more dificult. Per the CCR's it is almost impossible to pass another car in the turn without breaking the rule. The lead car can always chose to continue to the apex and the trail car will have to lift, drive two off or be hit and penalized.

I don't care that the lead car has the right of way, just don't give him the incentive to chop or force the passing car off the track. One simple addition to the rules and the problem goes away. The lead car shall not initiate contact with the passing car. In every instance of the video's posted the leading car initiated contact.

It is absurd to be involved in a race with the "no mirrors necessary" passing policies. I honestly never look in the mirrors while involved in side by side passing mid turn activities, I tend to have my eyes up track looking at the exit, calculating how much room i need to leave my competitor so he/she can also continue down the track without contact or being forced into, wall, grass, curbing, another competitor, flag station..... you get the point.

Why would anyone refuse to add a sentence that clearly discourages contact?


The SCCA rules make it too easy to make a pass. Don't like the car ahead of you? Stick your nose in 4 inches, punt him when he turns in, win, and then successfully protest him for fun.

Your suggested wording change contradicts other sections and makes the rules nearly the same as the SCCA rules, and I think NASA thinks their rules are better.

I'm sorry you don't like it. I like NASA's rules, but if you don't, other events beckon.
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#104
Rob Burgoon

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It is absurd to be involved in a race with the "no mirrors necessary" passing policies. I honestly never look in the mirrors while involved in side by side passing mid turn activities, I tend to have my eyes up track looking at the exit, calculating how much room i need to leave my competitor so he/she can also continue down the track without contact or being forced into, wall, grass, curbing, another competitor, flag station..... you get the point.


I think you just made the case for no mirrors necessary passing. Also, many forms of wheel to wheel racing ban mirrors and reflective surfaces.
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#105
Muda

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Wow, this is a real education. You guys really turn in on an overlapping car because the rules say it's your corner? I can't count how many times I went through a corner off line because there was someone there. Look in the mirrors? At that point if you don't have the spacial awareness to know from the sound and your last peek exactly where he is you're in big trouble. Hell, that's why I do this, for the door to door. Besides, if someone pulls that kind of move he better remember he will be racing with all of us again soon.
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#106
MPR22

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Rob,

Did the camera car punt the trail car in Dewey's video?
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#107
Ron Alan

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What's ironic about this whole discussion is that there is passing in every single NASA race...and it happens cleanly! You know why?? Because 95% of guys want to finish the race, be around for the next race, and want their competitors to be around also in one piece...so they leave RACING ROOM!!!!!! They also realize they are being passed for a reason...and generally it's a good one! Most chose to finish the race rather than be "In the right" as they survey the damage the tire wall did to their car.

IMO, despite what i think are flaws in the way NASA rules are written and interpreted(deweys video example)...they work, because the majority of racers are gentleman and not assholes! And in due time the Assholes take themselves out or are gently helped by a gentleman racer who's had enough. In SCCA, the divebomber who thinks he can use the rules to his advantage, in due time will to find his days numbered. Once was an accident, twice is suspect, 3rd time and the gentleman begin to cull the herd! Just how i see it from the stands :wave2:

Last word from me. In NASA, you should not be able to use your track position(and car) to foil a clean pass. In SCCA, you should not be able to take your competitor out from the rear because of a fractional overlap and get away with it! But hey, different strokes for different folks...someone always thinks they have a better mouse trap :D
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#108
john mueller

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What's ironic about this whole discussion is that there is passing in every single NASA race...and it happens cleanly! You know why?? Because 95% of guys want to finish the race, be around for the next race, and want their competitors to be around also in one piece...so they leave RACING ROOM!!!!!! They also realize they are being passed for a reason...and generally it's a good one! Most chose to finish the race rather than be "In the right" as they survey the damage the tire wall did to their car.

IMO, despite what i think are flaws in the way NASA rules are written and interpreted(deweys video example)...they work, because the majority of racers are gentleman and not assholes! And in due time the Assholes take themselves out or are gently helped by a gentleman racer who's had enough. In SCCA, the divebomber who thinks he can use the rules to his advantage, in due time will to find his days numbered. Once was an accident, twice is suspect, 3rd time and the gentleman begin to cull the herd! Just how i see it from the stands :wave2:

Last word from me. In NASA, you should not be able to use your track position(and car) to foil a clean pass. In SCCA, you should not be able to take your competitor out from the rear because of a fractional overlap and get away with it! But hey, different strokes for different folks...someone always thinks they have a better mouse trap :D


Great post Ron
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#109
Tyler Dahl

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Dewey, maybe what happened the day before is why the penalty was so harsh. If your going to tell a story don't leave out the beginning

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#110
Jim Boemler

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Great thoughts, Ron. Basically you're saying we don't need passing rules at all -- which is probably true in the long run, but it sure leaves a lot of problems in individual races.

#111
Walter Vetter

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Why have a rule book with diagrams if the Passing Arbitrator gets to choose the rules for the weekend and beware the driver that failed to ask how it will be adjudicated


+1

One of the things that I'm not crazy about in NASA is that many times decisions on rules, and even how events are conducted seem to be made on the fly. I guess that can be good and bad.

I won't go into specifics but I have personally witnessed what I consider bone-head behavior successfully lobbied out of being penalized.
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#112
Caveman-kwebb99

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+1

One of the things that I'm not crazy about in NASA is that many times decisions on rules, and even how events are conducted seem to be made on the fly. I guess that can be good and bad.

I won't go into specifics but I have personally witnessed what I consider bone-head behavior successfully lobbied out of being penalized.


Just like anywhere, it's all in who you know and how you talk to them. We are all humans, and we all have our favorites. Some race directors handle their bias better than others but we all have them, even us racers.

Rules are interpreted and enforced by Race Directors. I dont see that changing anytime soon.

I plan to race with both NASA and SCCA this year, my schedule is heavily wieghted towards my favorite group. I plan to race hard and clean and the chips will fall where they may. Even great racers have and even cause contact out there, nobody is perfect and we are still learning. Every bit of contact I have had has been a learning experience, I still have lots to learn...

If the pass is there take it, if you set it up, then take it, if it presents itself take it. You will learn nothing from not trying. You cant stop anyone from taking advantage of rules that allow them to put you into the grass, you have to figure you have about 98% shot at making the pass against someone who is not willing to put you into the grass on your attempt. Only 2% of the racers out there IMO are willing to go to those lengths to stay in front of you.

As for blocking... blocking is the slowest way around the track, attempting to block me on one turn just sets me up to get by you somewhere else. I have driven defensive lines and it almost always allows the guy behind me to stay in contact with me, and put pressure on me to not make mistakes. My finest races have been by driving the line using the entire track, and if someone can get around me then so be it. I made a decision sometime last year to drive my race, rather than worry about the people in my mirror. I still know where they are, and if they can get along side they get 4 wheels on the pavement. If they can beat me they are the better driver that day. I congradulate them and then start figuring out what I need to improve to win the next race. It has also made me much more likeable in the paddock :)
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#113
pat slattery

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Just like anywhere, it's all in who you know and how you talk to them. We are all humans, and we all have our favorites. Some race directors handle their bias better than others but we all have them, even us racers.

Rules are interpreted and enforced by Race Directors. I dont see that changing anytime soon.

I plan to race with both NASA and SCCA this year, my schedule is heavily wieghted towards my favorite group. I plan to race hard and clean and the chips will fall where they may. Even great racers have and even cause contact out there, nobody is perfect and we are still learning. Every bit of contact I have had has been a learning experience, I still have lots to learn...

If the pass is there take it, if you set it up, then take it, if it presents itself take it. You will learn nothing from not trying. You cant stop anyone from taking advantage of rules that allow them to put you into the grass, you have to figure you have about 98% shot at making the pass against someone who is not willing to put you into the grass on your attempt. Only 2% of the racers out there IMO are willing to go to those lengths to stay in front of you.

As for blocking... blocking is the slowest way around the track, attempting to block me on one turn just sets me up to get by you somewhere else. I have driven defensive lines and it almost always allows the guy behind me to stay in contact with me, and put pressure on me to not make mistakes. My finest races have been by driving the line using the entire track, and if someone can get around me then so be it. I made a decision sometime last year to drive my race, rather than worry about the people in my mirror. I still know where they are, and if they can get along side they get 4 wheels on the pavement. If they can beat me they are the better driver that day. I congradulate them and then start figuring out what I need to improve to win the next race. It has also made me much more likeable in the paddock :)


+1



 

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#114
Dewey P

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Dewey, maybe what happened the day before is why the penalty was so harsh. If your going to tell a story don't leave out the beginning

Tyler, post the video of what happened the day before and we will let the others be the judge.

#115
Tyler Dahl

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Here is the link, Judge away. It happens about the 9:35 mark. you can't see much other then my car move to the right twice and I had plenty of room for two cars to go through there with no contact.

Here is another view of the 2nd incident.

Dewey I wasn't making a big deal about it, I was just saying you should have given a little more back ground on the penalty since it was for multiple contact in multiple days.

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#116
James York

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Tyler,
Your race video, Race 2 Part 1, doesn't change my opinion around the discussion of penatly assignment in the earlier video. I can't quite tell what happened in Race 1 Part 1, where you may have been bumped wide. I haven't raced at Miller, and I couldn't tell enough from your camera. Perhaps that bump you recieved was deserving of a penatly, I can't say.

However, what happens in a previous race, with a different driver should NOT factor into assignment of fault in my opinion. Maybe used for the basis of severness of penalty, but not assigning blame.

NOTE: My opinions are not attempting to apply NASA rules. I don't know them. It is only based on other sactioning/forms of racing I have done over the years.

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#117
Jim Drago

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I can't go against Tyler because he has the best race suit in all of SCCA and NASA. :)
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#118
FTodaro

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However, what happens in a previous race, with a different driver should NOT factor into assignment of fault in my opinion. Maybe used for the basis of severness of penalty, but not assigning blame.

+1 multiple episodes should never be a pre curser to blame (in a perfect world) but it sure can show a trend.

For those who are still trying to figure out the rules, Lets start with some clear examples of what's NOT RACING ROOM


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#119
Tyler Dahl

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The steward told me he was going to be watched for the rest of the event and anymore contact would result in a DQ. Thats why there was the penalty for friday.

I have no problem with Darin or Dewey, heck I gave them my cam seals after tech so that they could get there car back together for the PTE race.

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#120
Dewey P

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Tyler, No big deal here. It's all good. Thanks for posting and adding to this thread. I only posted for others to see how passing issue's were handled at the National's. I'm not saying Nasa is doing anything wrong. Just an example for others to see.




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