120 replies to this topic

[Rob Burgoon]

Does anyone drive differently (in terms of passing) at an SCCA event vs. a NASA event?

Absolutely. I toggle between the two groups and have to carefully plan pass attempts with NASA and be glued to the mirrors with SCCA.

[Muda]

Does anyone drive differently (in terms of passing) at an SCCA event vs. a NASA event?

I've only done one NASA race, at the 25 hour this year. As I was in an E3 car I got passed more in 5 hours of driving that I did the entire season which included ProIT races. Most were very well behaved but everyone was trying to keep their car under them.

A legal chop? If it smells like one.......

Having driven Roebling for the first time last weekend I would have much rather watched you both try and go through T9 together flat and seen who came out the other side. ( :

[Edit] "Is there ever any contact that is intentional?"
Saw several attempts in front of me last year.
One got spanked.

[Rob Burgoon]

Pat,
Rob is a bit confused. It is a CHOP, but it is LEGAL.

Rob clearly likes to hold off his competitors by turning down on them as the come along side him. As long as he times it right every time he is not blocking. He is defending.

Not my fault you don't like the NASA rules. Driving a normal line through a corner when a car attempting to pass has failed to earn any rights is NOT a chop.

The word you're looking for is a "punt".

[john mueller]

Is there ever any contact that is intentional? Well, except for the NASA tech shed at the 2008 Mid-O nationals.

You've never used another car as a brake?? Opps, did I say that outloud?

[trimless]

You've never used another car as a brake?? Opps, did I say that outloud?

Only when it raining and I'm on bald tires!

[pat slattery]

What if both cars are going down the straight and and the overtaking cars is in about the same position, not quite half way there but up by the rear wheel. By your definition the leading car would be permitted to come down on the overtaking car and he would have to back off or risk a DQ. for contact.? Is that correct, cause I see no difference than what happened in the corner.

[john mueller]

Only when it raining and I'm on bald tires!

Yep, Matt Barns helped keep me on track at the exit of Mid-Ohio's keyhole this year at the Nationals Champ race (thanks Matt)... Oh, but that was unintentional. When we got to China beach we all went off (Taylor too) - I managed to stay out of the sand and finished the race, not sure about those two dudes.

[Rob Burgoon]

What if both cars are going down the straight and and the overtaking cars is in about the same position, not quite half way there but up by the rear wheel. By your definition the leading car would be permitted to come down on the overtaking car and he would have to back off or risk a DQ. for contact.? Is that correct, cause I see no difference than what happened in the corner.

That's where you gotta ask your regional steward.

When I asked in socal I was told that attempts to shove attackers off of a straight will not be tolerated.

You see, there's this sportsmanship clause in the rules. Do anything the steward really doesn't like and he can clock you with bad sportsmanship even if it's arguably "legal".

That said, the NASA rules appear to be designed so that you can race cleanly without any working mirrors. That's probably why they work the way they do. Drive predictably and look before you turn in, and you're golden.

[john mueller]

That's where you gotta ask your regional steward.

When I asked in socal I was told that attempts to shove attackers off of a straight will not be tolerated.

That said, the NASA rules appear to be designed so that you can race cleanly without any working mirrors. Drive predictably and look before you turn in, and you're golden.

Rob is 100% spot on (for SoCal anyway). I suspect most the other regions feel the same way too but ASK !!!

[Dewey P]

Watch this video of NASA Nationals in 2010. At 40 seconds you will see a pass 99% complete when driver being passed attempts to punt the passer. The car that had the pass 99% complete got a 10 position penalty at finish of race. Penalty was for un-safe passing

[James York]

I am not quite sure I read correctly... Are you saying the camera car got a penalty for the contact at about 40 seconds into the video? You must be joking.

[Dewey P]

Yep, camera car got the penalty. The other car protested the pass. Nasa's spec miata director originally moved the camera car to the rear of the field. Then after appealling changed penalty to ten positions. Just shows you NASA's passing rules are suspect.

[Jim Boemler]

Absolutely. I toggle between the two groups and have to carefully plan pass attempts with NASA and be glued to the mirrors with SCCA.

So you've learned to walk, and chew gum, but not at the same time!
Far as I'm concerned, whenever the conversation is about who has the "right" to take another car off track, the conversation is already swirling the drain.

[Cnj]

Yep, camera car got the penalty. The other car protested the pass. Nasa's spec miata director originally moved the camera car to the rear of the field. Then after appealling changed penalty to ten positions. Just shows you NASA's passing rules are suspect.

On what basis did he protest the pass and on what basis was he penalized? The video certainly looks like a clean pass (not just 99%), with the possible exception that he might have run the passed car off the track (can't see from this camera angle).

Cnj

[Rob Burgoon]

So you've learned to walk, and chew gum, but not at the same time! Far as I'm concerned, whenever the conversation is about who has the "right" to take another car off track, the conversation is already swirling the drain.

Suit yourself. I like to understand the rules I'm racing under, unlike some. The rules determine what you can protest, not necessarily what you can get away with or should do.

[Dewey P]

I don't recall the actual infraction they quoted. For all involved it seemed pretty clear the pass was clean. After reviewing several different video's the director changed the penalty the following day, before the main event. The car that was being passed appeared to move to drivers left and hit the right rear of camera car. According to NASA the pass was not complete and the driver being passed had every right to the part of the track.

[FTodaro]

Yep, camera car got the penalty. The other car protested the pass. Nasa's spec miata director originally moved the camera car to the rear of the field. Then after appealling changed penalty to ten positions. Just shows you NASA's passing rules are suspect.

It would have been helpful to see the camera from the car that was being passed, I can tell you that in my incident my camera view looked real convincing, but the camera of the car I hit looked good too. the clip a i posted a few posts up which was the car immediatly ahead of us was the best shot but I did not have access to that before they made the ruling. when I went back down to the officals with the video they said you can appeal the ruling but I got the impression that was a waste of time.
So the view of one camera may not tell the whole story.

I will say this I think running video, sadly, is real important.

[Dewey P]

Unfortunatly the other guy wouldn't show his video to anyone other than the officials.

[Rob Burgoon]

For the pass on the video, I'd venture to guess that the 85 was chased off the track by the camera car, then tank slapped and/or came back for payback.

Camera car needs to buy a better camera.

[MPR22]

Dewey, I agree with Rob, the guy clearly had it coming, he tried to pass another car without a point by.

Also in case you were not sure, according to Rob's definition the carmera car punted the other car by going to the left and hitting him in the left front bumper with his right rear bumper. An awesome display of car control if I ever saw one. This guy could teach Steve G. a thing or two about how to punt people.

Rob, you may understand your race directors interpretation of the rules but it is clear that the rule are not obvious to the participants in ALL regions. The rule book even acknowledges this and points the participant to the "Passing Arbitrator" aka Race Director at each event for guidance in what the interpetation of the rules will be for that event. Why have a rule book with diagrams if the Passing Arbitrator gets to choose the rules for the weekend and beware the driver that failed to ask how it will be adjudicated.

What is absurd about this is that people don't see how this rule actually creates contact by dictating a dominant position on the track. Rob repeatedly extols the virtues of being in the lead car and how everyone else should yield a pass the moment the lead car wants the same piece of track. That isn't racing, that is a DE with no passing in the corners without a point.

Seriously even Rob can't say the passing car was at fault in the latest video. Yet a "Passing Arbitrator" ruled in favor of the car that was no longer in the lead position and hit a car that was driving away from him to get ready for the turn in at the next corner.

We are not racing big horsepower cars that can clear each other in a mater 1 to 2 seconds. We are racing in a Spec class that thanks to the new weights and plates are extremely similar in performance. Way to go powers that be , you made passing in NASA even more dificult. Per the CCR's it is almost impossible to pass another car in the turn without breaking the rule. The lead car can always chose to continue to the apex and the trail car will have to lift, drive two off or be hit and penalized.

I don't care that the lead car has the right of way, just don't give him the incentive to chop or force the passing car off the track. One simple addition to the rules and the problem goes away. The lead car shall not initiate contact with the passing car. In every instance of the video's posted the leading car initiated contact.

It is absurd to be involved in a race with the "no mirrors necessary" passing policies. I honestly never look in the mirrors while involved in side by side passing mid turn activities, I tend to have my eyes up track looking at the exit, calculating how much room i need to leave my competitor so he/she can also continue down the track without contact or being forced into, wall, grass, curbing, another competitor, flag station..... you get the point.

Why would anyone refuse to add a sentence that clearly discourages contact?